Breeding for NOSE POWER

[mybeagles]

Im starting to see that breeding is only part of the equation. Putting adequate run time on a hound with a big nose seems to equally important. Many of the hounds with "extra mouth" or "better nose" get culled without ever being run up real good and developed into a quality hound. I would consider the cold nosed hounds as high maintenence. In other words, they need considerably more run time and may need an additional year or two to develop into a "snow hound".

Norwester, I would supose that there are several hounds in the general category you refer to that get culled because when the dog starts show the "baggage" you mention.

Mybeagles

[eddywilliams]

Nor Wester I line breed mainly concentrating on the blood of a little 123/4 in male which is Tunas sire Eyer's geno he was a true rabbit dog that done it right with the blood line to back him .You can no longer breed to Geno but I have a lot of his blood here crossed different I havent had problems with this cold trailing out of many litters out of Tuna who is producing like Geno .I had only one out of many raised here that was what I call mouthy I havent culled any out of Tuna he might have been the 1st candidate but he could pound a bunny and the owner liked him .

[littlewoody]

Im starting to see that breeding is only part of the equation. Putting adequate run time on a hound with a big nose seems to equally important. Many of the hounds with "extra mouth" or "better nose" get culled without ever being run up real good and developed into a quality hound. I would consider the cold nosed hounds as high maintenence. In other words, they need considerably more run time and may need an additional year or two to develop into a "snow hound".

Norwester, I would supose that there are several hounds in the general category you refer to that get culled because when the dog starts show the "baggage" you mention.

Mybeagles

+1 good post.

[littlewoody]

http://snowmanbeagles.com Snowman claims his hounds are snow hounds. Never met someone that runs his blood.

[fjg2]

easiest test of mouth evaluation is to observe a marked line; make a check if you have to; does the hound bark when he leaves the known line? if he shuts up while he is off the line chances are very good you can not call this dog mouthy; I cant recall ever seeing a clean mouthed while running hound that was mouthy on start-ups ?

[S.R.Patch]

From what I'm reading, big nose will continue to be an unconquerable trait to capture as it seems to take more time and work to evaluate, some say up to 2 years. While on the "chopping block" thread, most say 6-8 months, with a year being the longest I've read, is where most all have made and exercised their culling decisions.
Sometimes these little pearls of knowledge are so confusing to decipher...or do the contradictions make things more clear...
I remember Elmer Gray Was going to return/exchange Linesman at least twice by the time he was 3 years old and finally saw the hound in full form for what he was and his greatness.

[mybeagles]

S.R. Patch,

I'm not claiming to own or be in endless persuit of developing a line of cold nosed hounds. I have owned 2 in the past that had superior noses and they did require more maintenence and time to develop so I have moved on in my pursuits. While I certainly appreciate a quality cold nosed hound, I no longer agressively persue them to the degree Norwester and others are.

I believe part of the reason I was not able to produce more hounds with great snow noses was my impatience in waiting for them to develop in their 2nd or 3rd seasons. While those hounds serve a big nitche in the extreme northern climates, Im not so sure their faults outweigh the benefits in areas of moderate temps. If I end up in the northern extremes one day I will look to guys like Norwester and MN tomm for help getting hounds that fit their purpose.

I remember Elmer Gray Was going to return/exchange Linesman at least twice by the time he was 3 years old and finally saw the hound in full form for what he was and his greatness.

For every story like that one, there are a 1000 stories of guys keeping dogs for years in hopes they will someday have a great one. It's an individual preference. Some keep dogs for 2 years before they even consider culling. For me 6 months and 1 year are particular focal points. Sometimes a little more or less depending on the availability of replacements!

I hope this helps clarify things. I hate for my posts to cause such confusion. I'm a little cold nosed and need longer to develop. When I get your age I hope to
be able to speak with distinct clarity.

Mybeagles

[S.R.Patch]

Mybeagles,
We are all trying to learn here. Doing, mistakes, learning all a process in improving, no need to be defensive, I'm as big a failure as anyone but anyone who has not failed either hasn't done much or has no creativity and individual thought.

Your 1 in a 1000 guess is about rite on hound greatness,...It's about having the eye and patience to recognize and utilize it, that was Elmer's good fortune. imho

[Bunnyblaster]

Something that is funny to me is that I have found my patience to be one of my best virtues and also to be one of my greatest flaws all at the same time.......figure that one out!!

[S.R.Patch]

It's all in the nature of the individual animal,... I've been told, "I'll be late for my own funeral", ...but through experience, I'll never sit trustingly along the sidelines an let what doesn't seem rite take away from my efforts anymore.
Our reasoning and judgement comes from life experience,... she's the best teacher but painfully slow...

[mybeagles]

S.R. Patch,

We are all trying to learn here. Doing, mistakes, learning all a process in improving, no need to be defensive

Im trying to learn along with everyone else. When you cut and paraphrase my comments out of two different threads, combine them together and attempt to make me look like Im contradicting myself Im not sure anyone learns anything from that......

How long do you keep hounds before you determine they don't stack up? My experience has taught me to cut losses sooner rather than later and move on to next generation. In my small kennel through the years, my top dogs were all very good early and just kept getting better. My cold nosed hounds took longer to mature and were higher maintenence throughout the year. Im aware of the risk of culling a hound to soon, but a more common problem I see is kennels full of culls.

Of these hounds that are "late developers", what common traits do they have? Are they just average hounds that for some reason blossom at a late age? With this line of thinking you would have to keep several average hounds in the kennel. With my active family and career I would just have a bunch of out of shape hounds sitting in the kennel with all of them suffering the consequences.

You say history is against me, but I think if you asked the guys that have owned a superstar, most would tell you they were very good early. At least the guys Ive asked.

Mybeagles

[Jwagner]

http://snowmanbeagles.com Snowman claims his hounds are snow hounds. Never met someone that runs his blood.

All my hounds go back to his old blood!!! I haven't tried breeding too or getting a hound out of some of the newer outcross he has brought into his kennel. But a close friend of mind and myself have been line breeding his old stuff for a couple of years now. In my experience with running with ricks, eddy's and my own hounds from that old blood. Nose and brains aren't things they lack and seem to consistently throw. Now hunt and foot speed can be hit or miss on getting what I like. Just try to weed through what I like and don't like. but thats based on over 10 years of running this line of dog. might not be for everyone, cause they will cold trail some. but they keep me in rabbits year around!!

[NorWester1]

I think the biggest obstacle is simply that there isn't enough folks breeding for big nose specifically. If you are not actively selecting for that particular trait it really will be a shot in the dark as to when it pops up.

I know of only a handful of fellows even interested in keeping cold nosed hounds and fewer yet selectively breeding for it.
It's all relative of course and like Mybeagles mentioned, for those in a more moderate environment it probably isn't worth the hassle weeding thru the baggage to get that. I can't imagine I would be if 90 % of the time my hounds ran just fine having a hotter type nose.

As far as taking more time to evaluate, perhaps that is true but I'm still on the fence with respect to this. The very best I've seen in any breed of dog showed they had something at an early age, clearly more advanced than their peers.
I think this is especially true when one is trying to single out a particular trait and select for it.

One thing I've noticed for instance is that by selecting pups that appear very "nosey" extremely young... they tend to start faster thus gain more experience that is invaluable when running in a tough environment.
One of the drawbacks to this is the baggage/flaws that appear to come out as well, one in particular is time consuming to identify and evaluate.

The reason i started this thread was to see if there was anyone else reading this, selectively breeding for nose power and read of their experiences with the subject and understand how they were trouble shooting their way thru the process.

[fjg2]

I agree with several of you fells whome heartedly! The top 10% of hounds I have owned and or hunted with close friends were all seen as above average hounds by one year old easily. I know this without equivocation because I tried buying several of the individuals that come to mind at a very early age; and i was never successful and I was not trying to steal them $$$$$ either!


@ Mybeagles; did I misrepresent the content of your submission when I quoted you? if I did; I wish to extend my apoligizes

[klrconcrete]

I like to think that I breed for nose power. I dont have a master plan much beyond "the best to the best" I do loosely line breed a handful of what I consider old blood lines and in all honesty I feel I have much better results getting what I want (keep in mind I said what I want) than by following all the big name trial dogs. I do continually buy pups here and there from the FAMED big nose power houses of the day and have yet to really have ANYTHING that made me as happy as what I have bred within my pee ant operation. You can say kennel blind all you want, nothing is further from the truth here- as I stated I continually buy pups. I feel that starting with blood that has a reputation of or has proven too throw the better nose we are talking about is a huge part but nothing beyond oppurtunity makes any of them run and oppurtunity cant help lots of them run. Some one now give me the definition of a big nosed dog? Mine is as follows: can run in absolute s**t conditions - if they have experience and brain coupled with the nose. Will cold trial like a complete idiot and never produce a thing - if they DONT have the experience and brain coupled with the nose. Will back track until birth - if they DONT have the experience and brain coupled with the nose. Coincidently every dog that I have owned - including now or that I have ran with that I considered big nosed all were of above average intelligence (in my opinion) all the way around, is it that they really had a better nose or a better grasp on using the average nose?