Controversial Post number 3

[Guest]

Is the nose being bred out of trial dogs of today.

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

[Guest]

I hope as always that alot of folks will share their thoughts but I am particularly interested in hearing from folks like RB Sester and Duke Gilliand who have been doing this a long while.

Thanks
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

[KanesIrish]

I don't think nose is being bred out of the trial hound, but a lot of unexperienced judges can't tell the difference between a mouthy dog and a dog with a good nose.

[bullboy]

i dont know if the nose is getting bred out of them but i think in somelines hunt is talked at great length with some of the old breeders in the circuit i run and they all agree that the old stuff is where its at but its hard to find

[Hilltop Kennels]

I sure hope everbody is breeding for a good nose, because if your not then all you are doing is hurting the beagling breed. My purpose in my kennels is if the Beagles cannot do it on the worst days running bunnies then they are not worth feeding.

[Chris]

Another good question Murphy. You're on a roll.

I think that trials, by and large, promote hot-nosed dogs that don't bark out of place. Unfortunately, a bit of extra mouth usually (not always, but 9/10) comes with dogs with a real above average nose. I don't mean babbling, but some extra barks here and there that most people who put ribbons over good gunning seasons can't live with. There are some great exceptions to this, but they're not abundant. I prefer the clean mouth, but I prefer more when a dog can run when 3/4 of dogs around can't get enough scent to open or run for any distance. I've seen many over-week-long stretches where certain dogs (who do extremely well in trials) couldn't open on a 20 second old hare track. A hot nose is great for October, November, December, and sometimes March, but when the snow flies and temps drop it's virtually worthless to a gun hunter - at least in my neck of the woods.

Not saying that there aren't some very nice exceptions in the trial world, because I've seen some real nice ones, but by-and-large they favor perfect mouth over nose-power, and generations of breeding to run great during the good running months of trial season don't put the emphasis on the nose - where it belongs, in my opinion. A great dog can't be judged by how well they do on good days, but by how well they perform over the entire gunning season.

[AV Spencer]

I think I will weigh in on this subject. I was just speaking about this topic while running this past weekend. I was and still am a gun hunter first. I have always run my dogs all year round. I have been trialing for 4 years. Please don't get me wrong, I love to field trial. What I love more is the non-stop running you get from dogs that can keep the track alive. What I am saying is field trials in the nasty months sure don't look like field trials in the good running season. The dogs that can do it when others can't are few and far between , and I think the nose has been left behind in the breeding. Picture that a beagle with no nose!

AV

[Steve C.]

I'd say yes, nose is not being given the attention it should when breeding hounds. I don't think it's ignored so much as not tested for. Other than sanctioned events, there are few trials held on snow or under adverse winter conditions. Most trialers today (in my area) spend little, if any, time hunting during January and February, so nose is not an issue. Many of the hounds I've seen who are considered to have great nose are actually lacking nose in my book, but are simply throwing mouth and getting away with it. I've actually had a well known judge tell me he LIKES extra mouth. That's the reason most of my hounds come from bloodlines from the Canadian Maritimes, and from guys who hunt hard all winter. If they can get it done there, they can likely get it done here. I won't tolerate a mouthy hound, and you don't need to, but lack of nose is just as bad as too much mouth. I'm fairly happy with my dogs in this regard, but still not fully satisfied and am constantly searching for the hound who can run EVERY time down, yet not throw loose mouth around under normal conditions. Most of the hounds I've seen that were considered superior snow hounds were no better than average when I actually got to see them, and some couldn't even open on average January conditions in Maine. I plan to spend a lot of time this winter looking at some hounds who have been presented as guaranteed to run every time down no matter the conditions. I'll have my best along to compare- we'll see. Don't worry about what the trials are promoting, there's still plenty of guys who put hunting first.

[ACOMEAU]

Well said Steve. If you figure out the magic mixture, plenty of us on here in the northeast will pay for it. There seems to be a small group on here that have hashed this one out several times, and its funny we are all from the Northeast, Hunters, or Guides. No one else ever seems to have a problem with having enough nose but us. A lot of guys out there with dogs that can run any day on any condition, but seem to have a reason why they can't show em.

[GREG WELLS]

I agree that some dogs today don't have enough nose to run in tough conditions. But one problem could be that we are breeding them to be too fast and high strung that they won't slow down and grub in tough conditions. This seems like a problem that more brains bred into them would help; being able to adjust thier speed to scenting conditions even under pressure. I've only had three or four dogs that I would call exceptional; they wouldn't cold trail at all , but could could still run on tough scent when the rabbit was up or when the track got old. Don't get me wrong I love fast dogs, but there are times when I'd rather see them slow down in certain situations. I can only speak from my experiences here in KY on cottontail; it may take a totally different hound than what I like to get the job done in the bitter cold and deep snow.

[ALswamper]

Another good question Murphy. You're on a roll.

I think that trials, by and large, promote hot-nosed dogs that don't bark out of place. Unfortunately, a bit of extra mouth usually (not always, but 9/10) comes with dogs with a real above average nose. I don't mean babbling, but some extra barks here and there that most people who put ribbons over good gunning seasons can't live with. There are some great exceptions to this, but they're not abundant. I prefer the clean mouth, but I prefer more when a dog can run when 3/4 of dogs around can't get enough scent to open or run for any distance. I've seen many over-week-long stretches where certain dogs (who do extremely well in trials) couldn't open on a 20 second old hare track. A hot nose is great for October, November, December, and sometimes March, but when the snow flies and temps drop it's virtually worthless to a gun hunter - at least in my neck of the woods.

Not saying that there aren't some very nice exceptions in the trial world, because I've seen some real nice ones, but by-and-large they favor perfect mouth over nose-power, and generations of breeding to run great during the good running months of trial season don't put the emphasis on the nose - where it belongs, in my opinion. A great dog can't be judged by how well they do on good days, but by how well they perform over the entire gunning season.

Chris, it is for sure a whole lot more important for you guys to breed more nose into your hounds. I can only imagine. That goes to show you the differences in regions of the country. My dogs wouldn't have a prayer up there in Jan and Feb and probably Dec for that matter.

[DRamey]

Somewhere along the line during poor scenting conditions a hound has to decide to gear down and work out the line or run sloppy, taking chances. All this, I believe is determined by breeding. I have asked this before without a response and now I beleive I have a legitimate medium for the question. I have a female with a HUGE nose. She can work a track in dead-dusty dry roads with no excess mouth, across frozen puddles, etc. BUT-she is slow as Christmas. If she was bred to a straight LP hound, what traits could I expect from the pups? That type of nose with LP speed is what most of us desire, but I don't think that would happen. I believe some of the pups would be LP and others would be like her. A hound with nose, speed and hunt is a rare and precoius possession. I believe that some of the less responsible backyard breeders may be breeding for speed at the expense of nose, but for the most part, breeders are trying to (dare I say it) "better the breed." Or, as I interpreted it in the first response to controversial posts, "better the kennel." It's the same question with a different characteristic concerning breeding for hounds that will check others to death but do little else in contributing finding a rabbit and getting it going. Responsible breeders will avoid breeding for that ONE magical trait, because in all truth there is no one magical trait, they all work together to make a well-rounded hound.

[TC]

Well I guess I will jump in with both feet! Here in the Northwest our dogs have to be able to do it all year Where we have 100 degree weather in the Summer and -40 degree weather in the winter with lots of rain in between, Seems that our dogs do fine most of the time We need one that will be able to pick up a sent in a dry dusty Summer but be able to find em when it is below 0 with snow and ice on the ground. Have we as breeders sacrificed the nose for speed I don’t feel that we have, a hound just needs to have the gears to be able to slow down when needed and speed up when it’s hot on em. That being said I to feel that it depends again on the region of the country that you are in. Mine seem to do just fine for me Hot or cold and wet they can keep the rabbit moving. Now I have seen dogs come up from the East that will tear em up in their home area but just caint seem to run with ours. Seems to take em Quite awhile to adjust one fella out here came out from TN and his dog just could not keep up with ours during the fall and winter but did fine in the spring and has adjusted well! Another Moved out from NY and His tore em up all winter but come spring and summer is sloppy as all get out I am sure Mine would not do as well In Maine or NY either So I guess what I am trying to say Is that we all live in different areas so need to breed for where we are at and try to stay as true to the breed as possible the Dogs learn to adjust to where they live, if we ever do breed one that can do it all everywhere then we have reached the pentacle of the breed I just don’t see it happening any time soon.
JMHO

[Steve C.]

I agree completely, Dramey! The trials have placed a higher value on speed than it would seem to be warranted in a hunting dog. Speed is a good thing, but somewhat further down my priority list than several other traits. I should point out though that I'm not sure there's reason to be so pessimistic about breeding your bitch to a LP hound. Rob Kane, who often posts here has just such a cross who finished in a combination of LP and SPO. If your bitch really has an extraordinary nose, I would think it very possible to get at least one pup in a litter who inherits the dam's nose and the sire's more aggressive traits. I would want to choose a sire with a very good nose as well, and strong in any other areas that might be considered a weakness in the dam. She may or may not be geneticly able to pass her nose along but there's only one way to find out, and it may take a few different attempts.

[ACOMEAU]

DRaymey, I'll take one and give it a shot!