need some info on little ireland beagles.

[Bev]

When I need any advice from I'll ask for it in the mean time MYOB!!!

That was kinda rude. Aaron was trying to defuse a thread that was drawing complaints because of the nature of the tangent - the breeder being deceased. It's our jobs to keep a certain amount of decorum here.

As far as the Little Ireland dogs or pups needing socia;lization I have been breeding professionally for 40 years all breeds and types and I know when it is a meer socialization problem which can be over come and a radical congenital temperment problem which is hopeless all the early L I dogs were hopeless.

I'm wondering how many Little Ireland hounds you went thru before you deemed them all radically congenitally defective. I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong, you only have your experiences from which to draw, but somebody must be having different experiences because they are still raising and breeding them with what they consider to be a measure of success. I would also find it reasonable to assume most bloodlines in the early years have more than their share of culls. That's why we cull. May I ask which bloodline of beagles you ended up staying with?

When we have so many great breeders today I can't imagine why a person would waste his time on a line long gone that never amounted to a hill of beans their are excellent kennels in all areas of the country all types of hounds.

...and for each of those breeders and kennels you will find somebody else that will call them junk. It only took me about 1 year to figure than one out. As far as you discrediting my remarks on puppy socialization, my comments were not so much in defense of LI hounds in particular, but in support of Steve's post about the importance of it. There are other bloodlines besides LI that take a bad rap for inherent shyness when I know for a fact it's lack of early handling in most cases. I felt the concept was worth posting for those who don't have 40+ years of breeding behind them.

Everyone has their specialty, be it breeding, training, nutrition, health, etc. Mine happens to be canine psychology and wolf pack dynamics, so I won't take your jab at me personally.

[gamekeeper]

The man wanted info on LI beagles and I happen to have plenty of info from first hand experience I see nothing unethical when you tell the truth.Bad dogs are bad dogs where ever they come from alot of us were hood winked because he said what we wanted to hear and he new how to throw it .

[gamekeeper]

Bev couldn't agree more I handle at least 30 pups a month that have had no socialization and in a weeks time we have them on the road to sanity.

[Bev]

gamekeeper, your opinion of the LI dogs counts as much as anyone else's who have owned or handled them. I'll not touch the rep. of the man himself. Sadly, most of this discussion is a moot point because the LI bloodline proper hasn't been around for sometime. Descendents of this line have been tampered with and outbred for generations now. Maybe it's just me but it seems useless to make the comparisons to the old stuff. In essence, there is no striclty Little Ireland bloodline anymore. For some it's a bad thing, for others it's a good thing.

[Joe West]

IN addition to the percentages of keepers by breeding there is also an element of training. I see that the socialization of pups was already discussed. Every one knows that a new pup needs to get used to his new surroundings and must be given time to adjust when he goes to a new home. It's always best to let the pup approach you first and not force yourself on the new pup. Some adjust faster then others to their new home. Some will require a bit of understanding with a slow adjustment. It's the same with all aspects of training hounds. They all learn at different rates and good trainers understand their hounds and give them ample oppertunity to adjust when neccissary. KNowing that hounds are living breathing animals and treating them as such is an essential part of training hounds successfully. Patience is a big part of training hounds.

[Joe West]

gamekeeper: As an expert or at least vary experianced houndsman you should already know that a trainer must put the welfare of the hound ahead of his own if he ever expects to be a successful trainer. He must also be knowledgeable enough and willing to take the time to get the most out of each individual hound. As you know some take longer to come around then others. It would be a shame to loose out on a real world beater because of lack of patience in getting all that we can out of a hound. Now you should know this but you apparently don't.

It is clear that any beagler with a bit of patience with a new hound and most especailly a pup would give tender care to the pup so that it might adjust to his new surroundings. IN your case although you don't give a time frame you say you sent the first PUP back and sent the other PUP to someone else who shot it. The word PUP was the clue to me that you probably didn't give the PUPS enough time to adjust and get used to you. Or maybe they did get used to you because if you showed them the same attitude that you show here they probably were shy of you.

Lastly you have judged an entire line of hounds based upon two PUPS that you never even had to maturity or even to teen age for that matter. That is not surprising seeing as you can't settle on a single line for your own kennel; or a single breed for that matter.

I have had hounds from or descended from L.I. for over 20 years. Every hound in my kennel is pure L.I. descended and I don't know all there is to know about them. You on the other hand are an expert on the those hounds after haveing a couple of pups inat your place, or a friends place, for a few weeks.

Well it's time to call it like I see it and you are not only rude, you are foolish and ignorant. Seems like from what I've seen posted here that the pups acted accordingly to their surroundings. Let me know if you agree with anything Tom Dornin said because I'll have to rethink that portion of what he said.

INcidentally; is toy poodles one of the breeds you breed?

[gamekeeper]

West,I never had a pup from that old crook he hooked most of us when he first started with supposedly fully trained top quality hounds that were so fearful when released in the cover after being socialized in my kennel for months they would run and hide in the woods and you would have to spend all day looking for the clunkers.Don't tell me, no doubt he had to make changes eventully or someone would have hung the horse trader.No I don't breed poodles but if you want one I will get you one and it will be a good one I take pride in my dog business.

[Joe West]

Gamekeeper: Then your back to where I started as only a darn fool can't tell a shy dog right off. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with the pups but only a real rank amature don't know a shy dog when they see one. Heck even an amature can tell a shy dog right off. The fool was you for taken a shy dog in the first place.

I kinda don't blame them hounds for runnin and hiden in the woods after being socialized in your kennel judgeing by your posts so far. Hounds is good judges of men and the fact that they was runnin and hiden from the likes of you was just good sense.

So you trade in toy poodles too?

I'm gonna give you a litlle basic training advice because you surely need it as your post surely shows. You never let a new hound loose until he's used to you and obeys your commands willingly. That way you KNOW when you let him go he ain't gonna head for the hills on you. Had you known that BEFORE you let them dogs go you wouldn't have to chase all over the woods after them.

INcidentally just in case I didn't get your drift in your post quite right. Hounds are supposed to head for the cover to search for their game and your not supposed to see them until they get their game up or they check in. You did know that right?

[Guest]

Every one I have had would break out of the pack and run there own rabbit if there was another dog pushing it to hard

[Bev]

I've seen a lot of hounds do that when they're pushed too hard. If their working footspeed is much less than that of the rest of the pack it's bound to happen. I wouldn't want a dog to just "me too" with a pack just to keep up. On the flipside, it aggravates me to no end to have a hound with ample footspeed deliberately break off from a pack because they can't stand to share a track.

[Guest]

I dont think it was there lack of foot speed because with just one other dog they would stay in there,it only happened with four or more dogs.I think they just dont like pack pressure.

[Guest]

The main thing is run what you like.because if your happy feeding them im happy your feeding them.

[Malachy]

When

[gamekeeper]

West I can see you are the same as when you were writing your exciting articles about BOZO and BOOB so I shall with draw from this insane dialog.Have fun little TOM!

[Guest]

Gamekeeper: I thlught you would withdraw when you started to be exposed