Snow Hounds??

[NorWester1]

Schag wrote,

I guess I did not clarify myself very well. I have had the dogs with the "big noses" who cold trailed every time put on the ground and I will not tolerate it. Yes the dog could run a rabbit that was up when others could not, however, he could not keep his mouth shut before jump

Statements like this are a glimpse into the different perspectives each of us has when it comes time to hunting "tough winter conditions".
Where I am when things start getting tough....... no one cold trails. Because they can't.
What I mean by that is, the dogs that will cold trail in favorable conditions do so because they can smell the track before the hare is up (if you're out early enough in the morning).
When conditions get tougher they can't smell the hare until it is jumped. No cold trailing.
Now, much like what Bluegrass wrote of his hound...... it may sound like cold trailing in tougher conditions, but it's not.....it's a hot track, gone cold because of the conditions and there's a rabbit on that line that only the dogs with real nose power can move out.
Now, regardless of how the tough conditions may seem to me, if I have a couple of dogs calling on a track that is obviously not up.....I know the scenting conditions are not that bad.
It's always perplexed me how some fellows will relate hunts, writing how nasty the conditions were, and then turn around and tell of how the dogs hammered. If they hammered it just wasn't that tough, even if it felt like it to be standing out there listening to the race.

You won't tolerate a dog that cold trails in good conditions, that's cool, if you don't need to why would you?

However, it's been my experience that the dogs that supposedly have all the brains (as you put it) can't run in winter here and that's a fault I'd rather not tolerate

r

[ohlinger]

When hunting cottontails in tough conditions, the first place you're gonna look is in thick cozy brush for bunnies staying warm...hare a different story. A dog that can get in and find bunnies on bad days, and then has the nose and brains to run them will stick around in my kennel, most of those brutal horrible days if you're lucky enough to get a cottontail up it won't be up for too long anyhow. Different areas do call for a different type of dog. I've seen ALOT of dogs that will bark at cottontail tracks left in the snow...I'd call that brains, but at the same time if the snow has been down for awhile it's not always that effective b/c there is alot of tracks and that adds up to alot of barking..I just like a dog that shows me rabbits. I think that if guys in the ohio area do enough homework they can find dogs that are just right for our area....Eddy williams tuna dog is prbly one of those hounds. Ohio winters can be nasty but i'm sure it's no comparison to upper michigan, and canada. If a dog has too much nose around "most" days it's over kill. They do shine in those maybe 20 days a year that conditions are so bad no other dog can run, but what about the other 345 days of the year ? A dog with a good nose (not super) and patience to buckle down is really all i feel you need in our area..a good nose will run a hot cottontail track in bad conditions here...I.M.O.P...

[Schag]

Norwester1,

With all due respect read my entire post again. I said I only had two dogs that had the nose with the brains to handle it in my lifetime. That means that they could run when tracking was very difficult, but could keep their mouths shut when tracking was good. If I told you how many dogs I have been through in the past, I would embarrass myself. Not really good odds with getting a big nose and brains to match considering the hounds I have had or saw. I understand that some people when talking about a big nose really do not know what a true big nose is. I am sure you do with the conditions you talk about. Also, my example of the second dog running on ice in no way were they hammering. They had stretches where they were crawling to try to keep the run together. Stretches where I thought the chase was over until the old male would grub the check.

Good luck in the future.

[Big Mike]

the Sock-it-to-me X Townlines Johnny Paycheck cross, aka the Blue Sly line from Michigan are outstanding on snow.

[RiverBottom]

Lots of good information on this post.

I like to see where you are hunting and what kind of rabbit you are running, puts things in perspective. I hunt hare in Minnesota. We have 3 or 4 months when most days, no beagle ever born can run every hare steady for long periods of time without a loss. We do get the odd day when they can run good, but more often than not, it ain't happening. The beagle that can do it 90 % of the time here does not exist and never will.

Once in a great while, a beagle comes along that can somehow bring hare to the gun most days, even every day if you are willing to work at it as hard as they do. Not every hare they start. Not even half of the hare they start, but they manage to find a way to do it right often enough so that you could kill hare with them every day (if you are in the right place at the right time).

Dogs like this are few and far between. You can raise 100 pups off them and may not get another one like them. I've tried inbreeding, line breeding and outcrossing them and never found a way to mass produce "snow hounds". I don’t think it can be done.

I have never understood why most of you guys hate cold trailers. That just doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess we are too different to understand each others point of view? What I see with my dogs is this: They sometimes open before the jump. I love it. Won't be long and they have a hare jumped. Once the first hare is jumped, no more cold trailing last nights tracks.

I have much more trouble with dogs that trail old tracks when nothing is happening. In between when a hare is shot or lost (mostly lost) and the next hare is started, I have several dogs that will run tracks that were made in the last few minutes. The hare they are trailing may be a long ways away. There are lots of these tracks around after you have run in this spot a while. It gets pretty tracked up. After about three hours, you might as well pick up and move. I’m talking about hunting on snow in bad conditions here. On the good days, there is a good hot chase going most of the time and very little “extra mouth”.

Another thing I seldom see mentioned in these discussions is the age of the dog. My dogs ALWAYS cold trail more as they get older (the ones that don’t cold trail at all don’t get old here). Young dogs = very little extra mouth, middle aged = progressively more extra mouth, 10 years old = LOTS of extra mouth. Extra mouth meaning barking on tracks when the rabbit is not right in front of them.

[NorWester1]

Ohlinger wrote,

I think that if guys in the ohio area do enough homework they can find dogs that are just right for our area....Eddy williams tuna dog is prbly one of those hounds. Ohio winters can be nasty but i'm sure it's no comparison to upper michigan, and canada. If a dog has too much nose around "most" days it's over kill. They do shine in those maybe 20 days a year that conditions are so bad no other dog can run, but what about the other 345 days of the year ? A dog with a good nose (not super) and patience to buckle down is really all i feel you need in our area..a good nose will run a hot cottontail track in bad conditions here...I.M.O.P...

Very sensible and I don't see where anyone could argue with that.

There is no doubt that some dogs are just idiots, but these dogs don't last here any more than they would in Ohio. Sometimes they fool ya, but sooner or later they weed themselves out.
However, it is my opinion that if you are looking for honest to goodness, serious nose power you won't find it with these reputed honest mouth, don't call till the rabbit is up, (in ideal conditions) style of hounds.
It's no wonder most believe the nose is being lost in many bloodlines and it's because it's being bred out in an attempt to develope flawless mouth
Too many hounds with bonifide nose power are discarded in the shuffle.

Riverbottom, good post.
I'm sure anyone hunting tough winters can identify with what you've written here.

[Tundra Beagle]

Branko Beagles, Some very good snow hounds there. I have four hounds from them directly and everyone will pound on snow. Snow is very tricky. The day you usulally think is great usually sucks. I* live in northern VT usually get 300 plus inches of snow every year and conditions vary from day to day. I honestly do not think any beagle can shine every day on snow but the breeding will definately improve your odds. I truly believe in starting dogs on snow and this will help them in the future, but they will all test your patience on snow. If you will hunt in the conditions we do 85 degrees to 20 below zero you will hunt along time for adog that will be great everytime out. I really would recommend watching some dogs on snow in varying conditions.

[rabbitrunner33]

finely had time to get my rangerdan pup out on snow for the first time this year. she is out of one of deerhost bitches. shot 5out of 6 that she run we let her circle then at least once before we shot. never had a dog that run so good on snow and she only 18 mouth old.

[ohlinger]

I don't believe that nose is being bred out of dogs. I believe dogs are being bred to suit the people who own them...I think that not enough people do there homework to find what suits them, and too much hear say is being used to purchase dogs with out watching them in the field and having anything else to compare to them too...I have seen dogs with super nose that can get it done on the worst days. I've spent alot of time in the field with a friend of mines' dog that is right 90% of the time when he opens his mouth long before the other dogs. He won't come forward but he frequents this board very often. He claims he's just a rabbit dog, and to be honest he is "just a rabbit dog" but he will show you rabbits any day of the year. Problem is he will never win in a field trial the clock would get him before he shows you the rabbit. different things get different people. If you want nose power there are lines out there will show you nose power. You just have to know where to look. Awful bawlin dogs have this nose power, Branko has it in some of there dogs i believe. Paycheck I've seen it. Patience & nose power are directly related to working a tough track in bad conditions. I have a paycheck bred male(shoreacres x thirtyoughtsix blitz) here 17 months old great nose but lacks the patience as of right now, he's shown me that the last couple days. Granted they are just dogs and will never look perfect every day. I think that is something to keep in mind too. consistancy to me is the most important thing...can the dog show you rabbits consistantly in different conditions. Powdery snow i think is about as tough as it gets in ohio no matter how cold (cold enough to snow). Powdery snow seems to be the toughest track rabbits on. Right now in Ohio that is what we are dealing with a snow that does'nt stick to ur boots it just falls right off, I would'nt wanna stick my nose in this crap i can tell you that.