Breeding/DNA/Genetics question

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:34 pm

I have always considered breeding a uncle/niece aunt/nephew as linebreeding and father/daughter or littermates to be inbreeding, but if you make ,For instance, a cross of a female to her uncle(fathers littermate)geneticly what is the difference than breeding to the sire himself as the genetic code would be the same.What I am looking for here is a science based answer that is backed up by research as opposed to anyones opinion on what is better.Thanks

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

NSB · Post by **NSB** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:05 pm

The genetic code between two hounds in a litter is not the same. Each one starts from their own separate egg and is fertilized by a different sperm. Using people as an example, Look at identical twins. Fertilized egg splits and becomes two people. These are about as genetically close as you can get but yet they still are not the same. With Fraternal twins, which is what happens in a litter ,two or more eggs released all become fertilized. The variation that is available in this situation is far greater than identical twins.
I am not sure what you want this backed up with but that is Developmental Biology 101!
If all pups in a litter expressed there genes in the same way, barring differences in nurturing, all would turn out same.

Bob Huffman · Post by **Bob Huffman** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:21 pm

great answer. Sexual reproduction(male and female) is designed to produce variation and this variation has survived because it fits into the survival plan. The point of an uncle being the same as the father does have some validity but in the long run over time and numbers, the cross would not be the same for the reasons given by the last poster. Sexula reproduction just has too many numerical possibilities and chance combinations to make these 2 crosses the same. The differance of possible gene combinations of 2 littermates is tremendous at the genetic level. it is something to think about though and they would certainly have a lot of the same genes.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:04 pm

Thank both of you for your answers.NSB you pretty much said what I was looking for.I wasnt looking for anyone to qoute chapter and verse.I just dont have very much knowledge of genetics even if it is basic biology 101.I am thinking of breeding a female back to her Uncle and someone had posed the question to me of what was the difference geneticly than breeding back to her sire.Frankly I didnt have enough info to give them an informed answer.It is funny that you answered NSB because the the dog that I am thinking of breeding to is one that you probably know very well.Again thanks to both of you for your answers.

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:37 am

I think that, to put it in layman's terms, the extent that like genes match up determine whether it is technically an inbreed or linebreed more so than what the family relationship is. Remember, it is completely possible, though unlikely, that littermates could be genetically unrelated. If they were then bred, even though they be brother and sister, this would be a genetic outcross. Unless we can do a complete genetic mapping of each individual, and match each gene to a trait, we're still doing a lot of guessing and playing the odds. This is still far from an exact science.

mony · Post by **mony** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:45 pm

What if the female was bred to 2 different studs(they could even be brothers) in her same heat cycle? You could have littermates with different fathers.
If you bred a male from this litter to a female from this litter you could be breeding half brother to half sister, instead of full brother to sister. At the same time you could be breeding cousins.

Mony

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:24 pm

It's not so much the relationship the hounds bare towards one another as it is that they and the family possess the qualities you wish to perpetuate. It's why one who may lack in abitity but has a strong hunting "family" behind him is preferred over one who may put on a perfect show but has nothing of substance behind him. Going back to the brother/uncle is like reaching back into the granddam & grandsire bag of mixed marbles to see what colours you pull out in the pups. By percentages, the resulting pups will be weighted heavier on the males side and by odds, more of the male side qualities become dominate over the bitches. The direction taken is all done by standard and selection of the relulting pups you carry on with...Patch

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:37 pm

Mony

That's funny!

Are you old enough to remember an old song titled "I'm my own Granpaw"? Wish someone that knows how could find it and post the words on here.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:16 pm

First off,I appreciate all the answers.Funny how an innocent post can start something steamrolling.I have got many phonecalls and a couple of emails about what we are breeding.We are not breeding anything right now but are considering breeding a female out of Scooters Blue Flame Jet(he is out of Topdog) to Scooters Little Chief(Littermate to JET) or to a dog out of chief.We have not decided to make this cross yet and much will depend on how she performs this fall.I appreciate all the inquiries and will post it under upcoming litters if this cross is made.

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

mony · Post by **mony** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:47 am

Hey Alabama John,
I am old enough to remember that song. Here you go,
I'm My Own Grandpa
( Lonzo & Oscar )

It sounds funny, I know,
But it really is so,
Oh, I'm my own grandpa.

I'm my own grandpa.
I'm my own grandpa.
It sounds funny, I know,
But it really is so,
Oh, I'm my own grandpa.

Now many, many years ago, when I was twenty-three,
I was married to a widow who was pretty as could be.
This widow had a grown-up daughter who had hair of red.
My father fell in love with her, and soon they, too, were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life,
My daughter was my mother, cause she was my father's wife.
To complicate the matter, even though it brought me joy,
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to Dad,
And so became my uncle, though it made me very sad.
For if he was my uncle, then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter, who, of course, was my stepmother.

Father's wife then had a son who kept him on the run,
And he became my grandchild, for he was my daughter's son.
My wife is now my mother's mother, and it makes me blue,
Because, although she is my wife, she's my grandmother, too.

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild,
And everytime I think of it, it nearly drives me wild,
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa!

I'm my own grandpa.
I'm my own grandpa.
It sounds funny, I know, but it really is so,
Oh, I'm my own grandpa.

Hey Murph,
I was just horsin' around a little.
That sounds like a great breeding that you're considering.
Many people think inbreeding/linebreeding dogs is taboo. I think most consider it the same with dogs as with humans.
It sounds like you have a good program going and if you're happy with the results keep it up.

Mony

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:24 am

Mony
that is great. How in the World did you find that. Don't tell me you had it around the house somewhere. Thanks for taking the time. I printed it out to give all my friends and kin! What a lead straight man line!!! Don't anyone say anything.

I know some folks are serious about their inbreeding and linebreeding and have made a study or hobby out of it. God bless 'um. Maybe it will keep them out of trouble.

These posts do sound like that ol song to me sometimes. I guess its my warped sense of humor!

Breed your dogs like you want, you can inbreed every dog you have for as long as you live if you want to.

It's none of anyones business but yours.

mony · Post by **mony** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:42 am

Hey Alabama John,
I just did a YAHOO search for "I'm my own grandpa".
You can find almost anything with the search engines out there today.

I don't recommend inbreeding, or close linebreeding, for humans but for dogs it's the only way to lock in the desired traits and weed out the undesired.
I agree it's not for everyone and as long as YOU'RE happy with what you've got stay with it.

Mony

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:41 pm

Jmurphy, send me a PM please. I've got some firsthand experience with similar crosses as you are considering and I thought I might share the results with you, for what it's worth.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:59 pm

Steve I would very much appreciate your input.Please send me an email to abccleaningsvcs@Bellsouth.net.
Thanks
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel