Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

[Shotgun John]

Doube D's Joshua




Millerlake's Littleman Jeb


Trackin Trina 2010 pup




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[mybeagles]

Simply speaking, Yes you did. Thats the only way it happens. IMO its unfortunate that a dog with double D's conformation was ever used to breed.

Based on the pedigree you provided, these hounds are inbred with a line of dogs that had crooked legs intentionally bred into them to slow them down. If your satisfied with the line of dogs you have, you will need to cull ruthlessly to ensure you dont worsen the problem. If your going to line or inbreed in the future you must be very selective about conformation, as well as any other faults that arise.

It appears the Dam must have had very straight legs, or you likely would not have resulted in pups with such straight legs. Were the litter mates all as straight legged as the ones you pictured?

Mybeagles

[bbg]

Looking at their tails I'd say you bred some hunt into those dogs. The crooked legs is genetic. It will take careful and selective breeding to rid your line of the trait. I believe it is possible if you can cull hard. Remember that you dont want to lose that hunt though. I have recently decided to take on the same task, hoping that the hunt isn't linked to the crooked legs as it seems it may be (in the line I'm working with). I'm not sure that a link like this is possible as I don't know alot about genetics, but I'm trying to learn. Good Luck.

[bbg]

Looking at their tails I'd say you bred some hunt into those dogs. The crooked legs is genetic. It will take careful and selective breeding to rid your line of the trait. I believe it is possible if you can cull hard. Remember that you dont want to lose that hunt though. I have recently decided to take on the same task, hoping that the hunt isn't linked to the crooked legs as it seems it may be (in the line I'm working with). I'm not sure that a link like this is possible as I don't know alot about genetics, but I'm trying to learn. Good Luck.

[Shotgun John]

Simply speaking, Yes you did. Thats the only way it happens. IMO its unfortunate that a dog with double D's conformation was ever used to breed.

I have hunted with the Double D's and Haley Dalton and they were pretty straight legged for spo dogs. I say they run Med/med-fast.

Based on the pedigree you provided, these hounds are inbred with a line of dogs that had crooked legs intentionally bred into them to slow them down. If your satisfied with the line of dogs you have, you will need to cull ruthlessly to ensure you dont worsen the problem. If your going to line or inbreed in the future you must be very selective about conformation, as well as any other faults that arise.

I haven't had a pup with crooked legs yet. I don't know what speed mine run, you tell me. Watch Josh at the beginning of the clip. I don't think he is slow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DC8Baxcd0M

It appears the Dam must have had very straight legs, or you likely would not have resulted in pups with such straight legs. Were the litter mates all as straight legged as the ones you pictured?

Mybeagles

While they are much straighter than Joshes, they aren't as straight as Jebs or the puppies'. Joshes' litter mate was their sire (lit man Bo hanky) and I think if it shows up again it's just as much his genes even though he had straight legs. jmo

[chapkosbeagles]

dont forget traits can be passed every other generation or even farther but if they are there they they will show up soon or later

[bbg]

Nice video. No he's not slow.

[Laneline]

Shotgun John, I wouldn’t say you did, because it is hard to say how far back it goes in the genes. You may just be bringing it out in a particular cross you make.

It is a condition known as chondrodysplasia, achondroplasia or chondrodystrophy. It causes crippling deformities and abnormally shaped legs, the disease causes the cartilage cushioning the joints to become deformed and the bones attached to that cartilage to grow abnormally.

The condition is transmitted through a recessive gene. When two carriers of this recessive gene are bred, {it has to be both parents} the pups are often born with the disease. Chondrodysplasia also is in connection with other serious medical problems, including deafness, dwarfism and abnormally shortened life spans. It has a wide range of severity. For example, dogs whose front legs are affected, the dog may appear nearly normal, or else have front legs that are only slightly bowed. In extreme cases, the dog can be crippled with a lot of running due to severely bowed or crooked legs. They also can have slim bodies, long back legs with short crooked front legs with an oversized head.

Since both parents “must” be carriers in order for the disease to appear, before you breed any dog, check to see if the condition is present in the dog's parents, grandparents or littermates of the dog you’re breeding to. AKC and most Vets offer testing to identify carriers and affected dogs. We see this in the Old Pearson Creek dogs {and a few other lines}, when they were inbred so often. Not that it was the inbreeding, but the inbreeding of dogs that all shared this gene, over and over again. Especially when we see pictures of the original dogs that were “built right” and looked good, and then 3,4 or 5 generations go by and they suddenly appear to look “half Basset Hound”, or giant bodies with short legs and a giant head with short ears etc…, even though the pedigree says they were line or inbred.

Theoretically, if a person had the absolute worst case “female” that had this gene, and you found a male that was tested and did not have this gene anywhere in his linage, all of the pups should have straight legs, because both parents must have the gene for it to appear in the pups. But those pups must also be bred to a dog without the gene. If you try to go back to the original female that had it, in order to “linebreed”, it will show up in those pups again.

As I said, Pearson Creek and a few other lines had this, but testing for this was not around “or known of” back then. As a genetic disorder, chondrodysplasia was first identified in the 1970s, prior to that it was misdiagnosed as rickets, a disorder seen in severely malnourished dogs.

But “Rickets” can give you the same outcome of “crooked legs” and other deformities as this “genetic” disease. If you got pups that were severely malnourished in the first 6 to 7 weeks of life or the mother was severely malnourished while carrying the pups you may see it, but they don’t have the “gene”, so they can’t pass it on.

But I have had and seen some "crooked legged" dogs that could pound a rabbit, as I'm sure you have too. I try to do the best with what I have, and try to do better "next time".

[Shotgun John]

Shotgun John, I wouldn’t say you did, because it is hard to say how far back it goes in the genes. You may just be bringing it out in a particular cross you make.

That is what I was trying to get across. They go back to Pearson Creek Stub many times in their pedigree. I don't know if he had crooked legs but at some point it was already in the line. Peoples minds play trick on them. If I had used a litter mate to Josh that had straight legs and posted his picture, not one person would have said I bred crooked legs in my dogs even though he would be a carrier just like Josh. I used the crooked leg dog to breed because 1. He is a top notch rabbit dog and he was mine. 2. He was the females uncle and I wanted to see if they would throw crooked leg dogs before I got too involved with this line. So far the dogs shapes are impoving and not one pup has had crooked legs. Of course I recon to some my dogs don't have straight legs. To me Littleman Jeb and his pup Trina look like what I think a beagle should look like.lol

[Alabama John]

Shotgun,

that is a good pack of dogs you have there. Heck with the legs!

Down here, they are medium, but who cares as long as they are the speed you like! You feed 'um.

The dogs of the champions in Brace beagling had and have many with crooked legs and many bred for it. Also shorter legs in front to get them closer to the ground with their noses. Long ears to help trap the scent. So many features advertized in the dogs build to cause you to have an advantage in winning those trials.
Close breeding brings out the good, and unfortunately also the what today is considered by most the bad. Fads in beagles changes often, especially in field trials and trophy chasers dogs. Whatever is winning is bred for, whatever that is doesn't matter.

Those crooked front legs sure bring back some great memories of big named kennels and champion dogs from days gone past!!!
Look at old issues of Better Beagling to see what's advertised for stud.

If that is the speed and closeness you want to run, those crooked legs will not hurt you at all, may even help.

Good luck with your breeding!

[mybeagles]

John,

The question you asked is did I breed crooked legs into my dogs?

If you bred to double D then you did. Its impossible to breed to a crooked legged dog and say you didnt breed in crooked legs. As stated by laneline, its a recessive trait and it might not have come out in the litter you bred, but it has the ability to come out in subsequent litters.

As for speed, I have no idea what speed of hounds you have. They may be very fast, but I do know crooked legs were intentionally bred into some lines of dogs to slow them down. If your satisfied with the results your getting from your breedings than I wouldnt worry too much about it. Visible faults like crooked legs are much easier to eliminate than the subjective ones like lack of hunt, nose, brains, etc. Apparenently you like what this dog offers or you wouldnt be breeding to him.

Laneline, I dont see how you can breed to a crooked legged dog and say your not breeding it into your future generations of dogs. This dog (double D) is likely not where the problem started, but if he is used in a breeding program he is propogating it to future generations, no?

Mybeagles

[Tim H]

Here's a case where the wording can have multiple meanings and so the answers can be different and right.

"Did I breed it into my dogs?"

Did you add a gene into your gene pool that will cause crooked legs? Yes and No. As a recessive gene it could result in crooked legs/or not, depending on future breedings.
Do your dogs have crooked legs? Yes, No and Maybe. Yes the Sire has crooked legs. No the pups do not. Maybe (depending on your breeding) the next generation could or could not.

You have introduced an undesirable gene into your dogs. How you word it is not as important as how you steward over it. I assume you had a plan before this breeding other then generating an interesting post for the beagle board.

Good luck with those pups.

[ray s]

John,


Laneline, I dont see how you can breed to a crooked legged dog and say your not breeding it into your future generations of dogs. This dog (double D) is likely not where the problem started, but if he is used in a breeding program he is propogating it to future generations, no?

Mybeagles

As I read Laneline's comments ,he is actually saying you will be breeding it into future generations. And the only way to keep it as a genotype and not a phenotype, when this recessive gene is introduced to a line ,is you can only breed a carrier of this gene to dogs that have been tested to be void of this recessive gene. IMHO

[mybeagles]

ray s,

How many guys test the genes of the dogs before they breed?

I agree with Laneline and Tim H, and see what they are saying.

The question is "Did I breed it into my dogs?" and the answer is Yes.....if it shows up or not depends on what they are bred too, but it is in the dogs genes.

Mybeagles

[ray s]

ray s,

How many guys test the genes of the dogs before they breed?

I agree with Laneline and Tim H, and see what they are saying.

The question is "Did I breed it into my dogs?" and the answer is Yes.....if it shows up or not depends on what they are bred too, but it is in the dogs genes.

Mybeagles

Exactly.That is why you shouldn't breed it into your line . See how the comments made, show how hard it would be ( yet not impossible)to hide this genetic problem.
I was commenting on your reply to what Laneline posted, not the threads original post.
Sorry for the confusion.
Ray