Not enough nose???

[Budd]

Davisfarms,

Norwester1 I think makes a valid point when he says; the guys from the south where they never experience the ridiculous extremes of northern Canada seem to have all the theories on 'nose' all figured out.......problem is....these theories dont hold up when put to the test in the extreme cold.....

Mybeagles

, There are people that run in Norwesters weather conditions day in and day out all wither long and I know for a fact he is one of them and takes his beagle hunting serious. There are others that come to the great NORTH and try there hand at snowshoes for a week and say "ya I've ran in them conditions and the dogs looked great, problem is those conditions were probably optimal conditions as far as Norwesters concerned, but severe to you. I'm sure that all of you that say your dogs have the nose power are correct BUT for running in your area. Myself, I run same conditions as Norwester 90% of the time, I've ran dogs the last 7 days and only gotten ONE decent race, and it's not for lack of desire from the dogs it's because they don't have the nose power to get it done in this foot of dry sugar like snow. I'm hoping and gambling on people like Norwester and others to come up with or breed a line of dogs that can get it done in our running condition because I'm not a dog breeder, just a fella that enjoys running beagles, and at times wonder my sanity .

[THALL]

I don't have the experience as some of ya'll on this board. I've owned about 150 beagles in my lifetime. I do know there is a fine line in enough nose and a cold trailing idiot. I have dogs that will beat a track some and other that won't bark unless the scenting is excelent. If i leave my track beaters at home I won't even have a race on tuff days. Don't get me wrong i hate a mouthy dog, but I seem to have a lot of trouble finding a dog that can run a rabbit that doesn't bark off a little. I've always heard the stories about dogs that could roast a rabbit reguardless of the conditions, but i'm yet to own or see one.

I know you guys up north have brutal conditions and don't mean any dis-respect, but bring them big noses down here in August. We'll run when the day temps are 95 (80 if you want to run at night with no due), it hasn't rained in 6 weeks, and the dust is 1 inch deep. It takes a big nose down here too!

This is a very interesting topic!

[Bunnyblaster]

MAN..........and I thought this was one of the more tame threads we've seen lately.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

As for me i am no expert i only go 30 or so years i can never get back, when certain people talk i pay 0 attention.Guess its my fault, but when the people speak i can learn from i actually enjoy reading the post. None of us are to smart to learn, its amazing to me at times how little i know when the voices of wisdom speak.There is no need to turn things bad on this post as we have all read and enjoyed it.


Davis farms if u killed ur first rabbit in 1949 just how ol are you? I grew up with the ol fellas and still base my sincere thoughts and info that i learned from following my heros, i also have the upmost respect for anyone that is will to spend there life to better this love we call beagles.


Norwester, for what ever reason i just like reading what you got to say. More Pics please.


Laneline, You kinda make me believe you have been something like a vet in ur life, I would love to come see ur setup and talk dogs as i can tell you breed to exceed.



Thall, ur right the heat in kentucky is brutal at best when the temps and humidity began to soar over a hundred degrees.Thats actually when i run my hardest and why i feed my line.No fear in there heart and or quit in there eyes

[NorWester1]

Thall wrote,

I know you guys up north have brutal conditions and don't mean any dis-respect, but bring them big noses down here in August. We'll run when the day temps are 95 (80 if you want to run at night with no due), it hasn't rained in 6 weeks, and the dust is 1 inch deep. It takes a big nose down here too!

I've always kinda had a thought that a hound that could run a hare or rabbit in a hot dry environment, would probably stand a better chance at running here in the dry cold than most. The wild card of course is that up here we get some deep snow at times.
What concerns me most though (as far as making some sort of comparison) is that alot of you southern fellows seem to have developed an affection for northern bred "hare" hounds to run your cottontails with.
And everyone appears to be so enthralled with speed and how fast a hound can run a rabbit.
Alot of what you guys are using is the same blood in the hounds I have tried or am currently trying and
for the most part mine don't work out. I'm not talking about one or two....... I mean the vast majority don't have nose power, and are way to rough for the nose they do have. If we're all using the blood..... how is it that you southern guys are successful, but up here it's a complete wash?
On top of that, the ones that come closest to getting the job done here, you guys would shoot in a heart beat from the sounds of it.

Now I'm not pretending to have answers, because I don't, and I certainly am not gonna say I have better dogs simply based on how hard of a time mine have here....... that would make no sense at all. I'm also very aware that not everyone running in northern winters has the same difficulties I have experienced. In fact I think most of the fellows from south eastern Ontario all the way over to the eastern seaboard, north and south of the border, using similar bloodlines enjoy ideal winter running conditions and have very few days when they can't run.
Not all winters are the same I guess.

[bucks better beagles]

There seems to be some debate about nose power, regional power, speed power, experience power, and many other quality differences between various scribes on this issue. I have only one thing to add: having owned a great many dogs, I have found that once I begin to have doubts about one, it is only a matter of time until they are gone. I call it "intuition". It is a combination of all the things a particular person has learned in their life. If you get the 'feel' a dog just isn't going to make it. It probably won't. Either you see a future in a dog or you do not. If you do, you will see it at 9 months so there is no need to waste more time on it. Words do not always suffice to describe what you see but you will "SEE" or you won't.

Bob-Michigan

[NorWester1]

Davisfarms wrote,

And to go on another board or forum and take a cheap shot at a person behind their back is wrong. http://norwester.proboards.com/index.cg ... age=1#6794 You don’t know me or most of the hunters, breeders or trialers on here, so why would you assume and publically claim that somebody doesn’t know or experienced this or that

Laneline has posted on the Hunted Hare in the past and I believe he is a member there. The comments were not meant as a stab in the back.
I'm questioning the logic in his posts, not his integrity as a person!

Riverbottom summed it up and most seemed to have missed it.

I'm curious to know how many days a year do you guys have when, not only can you not circle a hare or rabbit...... can't run one 20 yards off the jump?
You know, those "5 bark days"?
Hell, up until a last weekend I don't think I'd seen a hare in almost 3 weeks? You guys getting the same thing?
Are you guys seeing the rabbit jump up, then watch your dog get to the track within seconds and act like there was nothing there, leaving you rubbing your eyes and checking your glasses.... now you're seeing things right?
How often are you seeing the rabbit go by and your dogs are 30 seconds behind him or less but they're still struggling and you know they just can't smell it and the first mistake they make.......is the end of the run, maybe even the hunt.
How many of you guys would be willing to run a hound on for 4 years waitin for it to "learn" or make the adjustment to run consistently?
These are some of the reasons I believe it's much more than just having "brains" and learning curve a hound needs to bridge

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

I have often wondered as hare hounds dwindeld south what would happen, We force em to run a cottaintail and thats everything there blood is against, its amazing to watch ky rabbits twist and turn and do there best to elude our hounds, granted speed is nice but seldom do we get to show our speed card where i run its more labored running and having to work out hard checks. Our hounds or ur blood has adapted well in the south so i guess dogs can be trained to overcome there hare bred blood. I think we and or me put alot of emphasis on hunt more so than the hare hunters i personally like dogs with me i dont enjoy hunting them. The better running is north of ky in indiana where the hard hitters can show there northern bred power with there southern training.Bob brings up agood point some people got a eye for em and others rely on advice from people who do , but the other % dont get and wont ever have it.People didnt just get smart, i have often studied pedigrees and wondered what were they were thinking as they tried to exceed the last breeding.If only pedigrees could talk.

[Nailer]

Laneline, you went so far as to point out the difference between Bloodhounds and others. Obviously this was developed thru selective breeding. Why would you believe such a superior difference could not exist with a Beagle thru selective breeding?
You're contradicting yourself.

I don’t understand where he is contradicting himself, didn’t he just say that? Are you even actually reading the posts, or are you just skimming over them and spewing out words.

Laneline Wrote: “Which was my point, some well bred Dachshunds that have been under tough selective breeding, for the purpose of hunting have been used in tough conditions along with good conditions for years. I don’t believe they “out-smell“ beagles, some have just been bred better. Through selective breeding we can control how our dogs run in any condition.”

As far as the bloodhounds go, beagles are not bloodhounds! You can only do the best with what you have. Yes, you can use selective breeding to raise the bar in any breed to a higher level in different traits, {thats what Laneline just said} but a beagle is a beagle and you can only go so far in any trait per breed, they have limitations. You can’t “selective breed” any two beagles to get a bloodhound nose. Unless, you out cross to a totally different breed of dog to gain access to what that breed has to offer, which many hunters do and trialers have done in the past, even if the papers say otherwise.

NorWester1, your analogy of the greyhound and pug don’t make sense or atleased it is not at all relevant to the conversation. Laneline was comparing Jordan to other men that had attributes “physically” with Jordan, but yet their were differences because of how thay acted or reacted because of the mental focus, signals from the brain to the body or whatever you want to call it. Which would be the same as comparing beagles to beagles and why there were differences between them even though they were all born with similar tools. Its not about over coming odds and Jordan being like Shaq or Jordan being like Spud Webb. It is about other men “like Jordan” but can’t do the things Jordan does.

One thing I do know, I think it is funny that some on here feel like it is their life calling and mission to correct and prove wrong any legitimate opinions that come from houndsmen that are speaking from actual experience, especially when they themselves can more than likely can count the times they have had dogs out on one hand in the last year and spend the bulk of their time behind a computer speaking and debating things they have only read about or talked to others about. Some of the fellows on this very board have their dogs in the woods 4 to 5 days a week, every week the whole year and have done this for years. They hunt in as far north as you can go in the US and hunt some in Canada, and they go South to some of the hottest climates to hunt in, and in all kinds of good and bad conditions. When they share what they have seen and experienced, some of you want to dispute and argue? I know everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t think some of you know how stupid you look to others. I think you have talked yourself into thinking you sound smart. Some of you need to trade your computer in on a hound and actually go do it before you talk about it.
That’s all I have to say about this subject, “Forrest” Davis

well said davis

[S.R.Patch]

The best jumpdawg I ever had never started till a year old(Sharp Mikie X HH PopFannie).

Some are so keen and beyond their years they blow up.

I'd give 4 years to get a great one that could do it all. Showing progress and the ability to adjust and learn from mistakes. Hunted her till she was 12, then she started doing stupid things, a very sad time.

Many people have sent their northern hounds south to get a start on cottontail, they learn patience and line control from the sitting, twisting rabbit. Many have said their best hounds were started in this way when returned to run hare.

One thing I learn't from the hare bred was their natural tendency to range wide while hunting. I learn't them to hunt closer as puppies by changing directions on them often while they still had the need to know where I was and were unsure of themselves. When I started running hare, I learn't why they wanted to range naturally the way they did, a hare hound has to got out and hunt, ranging much like a bird dog to start it's game...else, your going to be doing a lot of walking...

I've had a couple of cold trailers years ago, did a good job and were dependable to start their rabbit but not what I liked as nobody would hunt with me. Medium/slow, you could hunt a 20 acre patch all day. My grandpa like them as he could sit on his stool and it was slow smooth music and the rabbit came through at a rate where even a 12 year old boy could shoot it...
They would have been useless on deep snow as they had not the constitution to tackle work in deep snow, they were better a rooting under honeysuckle and dead falls.

I remember reading in the old books that in the latter days, the Blue Caps of Mr. Card had become slower and apt to cold trail a good bit. It was offered to him to come down to the Northern Hare Trials and see hounds that could run and punish their hare...don't think it said whether he ever made the journey or not.

[lee ga]

Having owned a few and seeing many more at trials, my experience has been that not many hounds from the northern bloodlines can get it done in bad conditions down here in the south either. I can say the same thing about the southern bloodlines. Not many that get it done in the worst of conditions. Again, its just what I have experienced.

[mobeagle]

I cant help but chime in on this topic. I've been hound hunting hard my whole life and it took me 15 years to realize the very simplest of things. No matter where you hunt and not matter what the conditions if you have hounds with good noses you can hunt when you want not when the weather man says you can hunt. I dont want to have to check the conditions before I decide if I'm gona go or not if I want to hunt I want my dogs to be able to hunt.


There is only ONE trait that will allow you to hunt when you choose and wherever you choose and that is NOSE POWER> everything else is secondary. You start with nose and go from there and you'll be succesfull wherever you decide to hunt. There are so many hunters at home RIGHT NOW that would like to go hunting but cant because the scenting conditions in their area arent good. Whats the point in having fair weather hounds people. My personal decision on a dog weather it be a beagle or my runing hounds on wether they make the cut or not isnt decided until they've proved themselves on days where other hunters are at home on the couch because its tough runin. I dont understand it and never will understand why anyone would want to keep hounds that can only run in certain conditions. You're letting your dogs dictate when you can hunt and why not be able to hunt when you want? JMO on the subject.

[rmaynard]

I don't post on here much but I'm going to. I live in southern Michigan and run cottontail. Right now when you walk out the door we have about 3" of snow that looks like little ice balls. Nose can be a great thing but with snow like that there are not many beagles that can run on that. My father had one that could but she would drive you crazy on good days. So with that being said how much nose do you really want? I like a dog that barks when the rabbit is jumped not coldtrail all over and then a 10 minutes later you have a race and not to mention all the bad habits a hound can get with bad conditions.

[mobeagle]

I don't post on here much but I'm going to. I live in southern Michigan and run cottontail. Right now when you walk out the door we have about 3" of snow that looks like little ice balls. Nose can be a great thing but with snow like that there are not many beagles that can run on that. My father had one that could but she would drive you crazy on good days. So with that being said how much nose do you really want? I like a dog that barks when the rabbit is jumped not coldtrail all over and then a 10 minutes later you have a race and not to mention all the bad habits a hound can get with bad conditions.

LOL There are plenty of dogs with great noses that dont cold trail bark everywhere people just give up if they dont find one right away. They're out there. If people havent seen them they assume it isnt there. Kinda like air just becuase you havent seen it doesnt mean it isnt there.

[Newt]

Having owned a few and seeing many more at trials, my experience has been that not many hounds from the northern bloodlines can get it done in bad conditions down here in the south either. I can say the same thing about the southern bloodlines. Not many that get it done in the worst of conditions. Again, its just what I have experienced.

Lee you and I have had similar experiences. However, no doubt those dogs from the north that couldn't run in severe conditions in the South, couldn't run where Riverbottom and Northwest run either.