Not enough nose???

[S.R.Patch]

You know how a motor smooths out when you get the fuel/air mixture and the timing set just right?
I believe the mechanics are all there in every hound but the structure may be of a better design in some than others for best results.
There are people that have better "sniffers" than others, some by design and others by the environment they live.
You know when you have a cold, how your sense of smell and taste are affected? The venturi effect of the air passing by the choke tube is inhibited and covered by mucus.

Scent receptors are directly connected to the brain, for a hound to speak on scent is a mental reflex. A weak mind may have a hound speaking in all directions. This is why you hear praise of a levelheaded hound with good method and reason.

[Laneline]

You've got all this experience running in tough conditions?

Lol … I don’t believe I said that. Like most I have hunted in the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to conditions. And the same went for field trialing and judging in field trials. But I believe there are people that own hounds, and then there are houndsman, that welcome the bad and ugly along with the good. And I guess I believe the same differences are between the hound and the hunting hound and that it is all in the breeding.

I guess I need to pick and choose my words a little better so I don’t mislead what I’m trying to say, and I don’t want to offend anybody.

I totally agree that some dogs can simply pick up the line better then other dogs. My point was why they can. Every man that shares the same height, weight, build, muscle tone etc… as Michael Jordan, should be able to do or learn the same things as Michael Jordan, right? But nobody yet has been able to because they are “wired” different between the ears. And so it is with dogs.

The dog's senses are similar in function of humans. Information from the senses feeds into the brain, where it triggers either a body response or hormonal activity. For example, if a dog steps on something and feels pain, it steps back - a physical response. If it smells male or female dog scent, the pituitary gland in its brain activates and stimulates a hormonal response. When a hound smells a scent it reacts, but in what way?

Moisture on the nose helps to capture scent, which is transmitted onto the nasal membranes. Sensory cells are closely packed along the nasal-membrane lining. Depending on the breed of the dog, smaller noses have less room for sensory cells. They convert scent to chemical messages transmitted to the olfactory bulb region of the brain. Other scents are captured by the vomeronasal organ above the roof of the mouth, and transmitted to other parts of the brain. A dog's brain also has the ability to identify and separate different scents. Some better than others depending how they are wired/bred.

Number of Scent Receptors:
Humans = 5 million
Dachshund = 125 million
Beagle = 225 million
Bloodhound = 300 million

The percentage of the dog's brain that recognizes smells/scents and sends responses {the responses that we want in hunting beagles} comes through and depends on their gene pool, selective breeding.

Which was my point, some well bred Dachshunds that have been under tough selective breeding, for the purpose of hunting have been used in tough conditions along with good conditions for years. I don’t believe they “out-smell“ beagles, some have just been bred better. Through selective breeding we can control how our dogs run in any condition. But I believe it is more brain power, not nose power.

But hey, agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter. I think we are after the same things, just trying to figure out how to get it. Take Care, Jim

[tommyg]

In my exp.running when its cold or in snow can be tuff but when its sunny out I belive its worse.The sent rises fast and a hound has a hard time,unless its humid. I seen pounding running on a overcast day 0 temps and a foot of fresh snow.I just seen new years day a pack of hounds struggle all day on a sunny cold day with no snow,and low humidity.My hounds have trouble on sunny days cold or hot,when its humid they run great on a sunny day the mositure holds the sent down.jmo

[mybeagles]

[

b]Every man that shares the same height, weight, build, muscle tone etc… as Michael Jordan, should be able to do or learn the same things as Michael Jordan, right? But nobody yet has been able to because they are “wired” different between the ears. And so it is with dogs.

I would'nt describe pro atheletes as the mental giants of society. The reason Michael Jordan dominated the NBA is because God made him with phenominal talent that other men his size dont posess. Physical tallent! The reason a baseball pitcher can throw a baseball 100 mph is because he has fast twitch muscles in the shoulder with quicker reaction time not because he is mentally tougher or has a better conection between the brain and the shoulder muscles.

The reason some beagles can smell in tough conditions is because they have a better nose. Call the scent receptors more efficient, or more effective, but it has nothing to do with desire or psyche. We may be splitting hairs, but if you want to say the scent receptors are better connected to the brain I might agree to that, but to me thats just a complicated way of saying they "have a better nose".

Its also a misconception that you can just breed a line of dogs and consistently produce great noses......Michael Jordan had brothers, were any of them close to being NBA stars? Nolan Ryan had brothers, could any of them throw a 100 mph fastball? We try to breed dogs that have big noses, yes it improves the chances but by no means a guarentee.

Mybeagles

[big mike 50]

I think mybeagles and laneline are saying the same thing. If you cut open any two dogs they would appear the same, even on a microscopic level they may be very similar. On paper they may have identical or nearly the same breeding, but when you put them down you have two totally different dogs. It's not that anything is different between the dogs they each just have their own way of using the talents that God has given each of them.

[Bunnyblaster]

Which was my point, some well bred Dachshunds that have been under tough selective breeding, for the purpose of hunting have been used in tough conditions along with good conditions for years. I don’t believe they “out-smell“ beagles, some have just been bred better. Through selective breeding we can control how our dogs run in any condition. But I believe it is more brain power, not nose power.

But hey, agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter. I think we are after the same things, just trying to figure out how to get it. Take Care, Jim

What about the dog that everyone has seen that babbles or runs it's mouth but never moves the track??? Are those dogs intelligent?? Do they have a better nose but are just too stupid to use it??? And I don't think Michael Jordans brains allowed him to jump like he does..........err I mean did. I think his brains allowed him to utilize his superior tools better than other people of the same height, weight and muscle tone. Like I said I believe it to be a combination of having the abilities and the brains to use them properly........but what do I know??? LOL

And yes we will always be trying to figure it all out like you said. I may not agree with your take on it but I appreciate your input.

[NorWester1]

Regarding dogs possessing the coldest noses I've heard it said,

1. That some dogs are just physiologically more enhanced.

2. That all hounds are created equal, some just have a lot more desire to smell alot less scent.

Chances are it's a combination of both.

The Michael Jordan analogy is an interesting one. No question Jordan has the mental aspect down pat needed to excel at what he does.
However there are some physiological traits he has that most people do not.

A better way to look at it I think is to picture a winning track Greyhound and an AKC show champion Pug in a race.

Physiologically they are both the same correct? (Both have 4 legs, two eyes, a nose, ears, etc, etc) But to state it is all brain work that enables the Greyhound to be faster than the Pug is silly.
No matter how smart or how much determination and desire that Pug has to win that race, it will never be as fast as the Greyhound.

My point being, there are more than likely some subtle physiological differences within the coldest nose hounds.... things perhaps we can't see or don't recognize as being superior for what they do.

Laneline, you went so far as to point out the difference between Bloodhounds and others. Obviously this was developed thru selective breeding. Why would you believe such a superior difference could not exist with a Beagle thru selective breeding?
You're contradicting yourself.



Riverbottom wrote,

Unless you are trying to hunt on old, deep snow that has been through many nights when the temp hit 20 or 30 below zero (been close to 40 below here a couple nights this year), you really can't know what it is like.

Exactly.
It's frustrating reading the same old line about brain power/nose power connection coming from houndsmen who've never hunted or tried hunting in tough conditions on a consistent basis.
Interesting that the majority of fellows I know of who routinely hunt in tough winter environments view this subject differently and they have personally logged the hours and number of hounds trying to hunt in such conditions to lend support to their theories.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to come across some "brainy" hounds that can make the adjustment, mentally or physically to run in ANY conditions or terrain. However after going thru a considerable number of dogs and countless hours attempting to hunt in winter here, I'm more convinced all the time that such a hound or hounds do not exist.
I believe the best hounds for tough winter hunting will be specialists, when and if such a gene pool is ever created and that what most call an "all rounder" falls under the catagory of "jack of all trades, master of none".

Tough winter hunting requires a master of that trade

[lee ga]

Bunnyblaster and norwester, good post. The jordon example is great. He was prob born with some god given gifts, but he practiced everyday, worked out, he was focused, determined etc. He also had many coaches along the way. Take away any part of this equation and he might not have been as succesful.

[DavisFarms]

Laneline, you went so far as to point out the difference between Bloodhounds and others. Obviously this was developed thru selective breeding. Why would you believe such a superior difference could not exist with a Beagle thru selective breeding?
You're contradicting yourself.

I don’t understand where he is contradicting himself, didn’t he just say that? Are you even actually reading the posts, or are you just skimming over them and spewing out words.

Laneline Wrote: “Which was my point, some well bred Dachshunds that have been under tough selective breeding, for the purpose of hunting have been used in tough conditions along with good conditions for years. I don’t believe they “out-smell“ beagles, some have just been bred better. Through selective breeding we can control how our dogs run in any condition.”

As far as the bloodhounds go, beagles are not bloodhounds! You can only do the best with what you have. Yes, you can use selective breeding to raise the bar in any breed to a higher level in different traits, {thats what Laneline just said} but a beagle is a beagle and you can only go so far in any trait per breed, they have limitations. You can’t “selective breed” any two beagles to get a bloodhound nose. Unless, you out cross to a totally different breed of dog to gain access to what that breed has to offer, which many hunters do and trialers have done in the past, even if the papers say otherwise.

NorWester1, your analogy of the greyhound and pug don’t make sense or atleased it is not at all relevant to the conversation. Laneline was comparing Jordan to other men that had attributes “physically” with Jordan, but yet their were differences because of how thay acted or reacted because of the mental focus, signals from the brain to the body or whatever you want to call it. Which would be the same as comparing beagles to beagles and why there were differences between them even though they were all born with similar tools. Its not about over coming odds and Jordan being like Shaq or Jordan being like Spud Webb. It is about other men “like Jordan” but can’t do the things Jordan does.

One thing I do know, I think it is funny that some on here feel like it is their life calling and mission to correct and prove wrong any legitimate opinions that come from houndsmen that are speaking from actual experience, especially when they themselves can more than likely can count the times they have had dogs out on one hand in the last year and spend the bulk of their time behind a computer speaking and debating things they have only read about or talked to others about. Some of the fellows on this very board have their dogs in the woods 4 to 5 days a week, every week the whole year and have done this for years. They hunt in as far north as you can go in the US and hunt some in Canada, and they go South to some of the hottest climates to hunt in, and in all kinds of good and bad conditions. When they share what they have seen and experienced, some of you want to dispute and argue? I know everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t think some of you know how stupid you look to others. I think you have talked yourself into thinking you sound smart. Some of you need to trade your computer in on a hound and actually go do it before you talk about it.
That’s all I have to say about this subject, “Forrest” Davis

[NorWester1]

[Ron Conroe]

davisfarms
it sounds like you are the one that is taking it personal. everybody is just giving ther own opinions, besides it looks like laneline is handleing it pretty good himself.

[mybeagles]

Norwester1,

Quit sitting behing the computer and go run your dogs you computer geek.......

I bet you have only run your dogs 4-5 times all year......

Have you ever run in conditions that require a dog to have a nose........

Davisfarms is speaking from experience......maybe you should just listed to what he has to say.........

DavisFarms said

One thing I do know, I think it is funny that some on here feel like it is their life calling and mission to correct and prove wrong any legitimate opinions that come from houndsmen that are speaking from actual experience, especially when they themselves can more than likely can count the times they have had dogs out on one hand in the last year and spend the bulk of their time behind a computer speaking and debating things they have only read about or talked to others about.

Who are you referring to????

Mybeagles

[Budd]

Norwester1,

Quit sitting behing the computer and go run your dogs you computer geek.......

I bet you have only run your dogs 4-5 times all year......

Have you ever run in conditions that require a dog to have a nose........

Davisfarms is speaking from experience......maybe you should just listed to what he has to say.........

DavisFarms said

One thing I do know, I think it is funny that some on here feel like it is their life calling and mission to correct and prove wrong any legitimate opinions that come from houndsmen that are speaking from actual experience, especially when they themselves can more than likely can count the times they have had dogs out on one hand in the last year and spend the bulk of their time behind a computer speaking and debating things they have only read about or talked to others about.

Who are you referring to????

Mybeagles

[DavisFarms]

Davisfarms is speaking from experience......maybe you should just listed to what he has to say.........

I shot my first rabbit in 1949 and I have hunted with hounds in all kinds of conditions in several different states and Canada since that day, in good and bad conditions. So yes, I have learned a few things over the years. Have I been everywhere, seen everything and do I know it all? No, but I am not on here claiming or acting I have.

I read a lot of posts from on here from several different people, and I know several of you are intelligent and are more educated than I am, and really too smart to be doing what some of you do. To be crude and rude and to view anybodys else opinion that is not the same as yours as being automatically wrong, is wrong in its self. You can disagree in one sentence, but to disagree and in that same sentence throw a cheap shot at a person is unnecessary. And to go on another board or forum and take a cheap shot at a person behind their back is wrong. http://norwester.proboards.com/index.cg ... age=1#6794 You don’t know me or most of the hunters, breeders or trialers on here, so why would you assume and publically claim that somebody doesn’t know or experienced this or that. Since I came on here a lot of you have made some real good points and many can benefit from a forum like this. But even if your right in “what” you say, you throw away all your credibility by “how” you say it. You don’t tear somebody down, to make your self “feel” built up. Its not just this thread, I have seen this on multiple threads on different subjects, always the same few people with the same sour attitude. More people would speak up and ask questions and learn more if they didn’t think that somebody was going to follow up and degrade and put them down. Me, my hide is thick, I am too old to care and I don’t give a rip. My intentions was not to offend anybody simply because I felt offended, so If I did I am sorry. And I know we are not in church on this board, but this stuff gets old. But we need more class, and less showing of ass.

[mybeagles]

Davisfarms,

Nothing personal about any of the posts. I recognize LaneLine as one of the most knowledgeable houndsmen on any of the boards and if you read that link you will see mention of that more than once. The guys that live in extreme temps and have life endevours of finding an exteme weather dog see the issue of nose very very differently than the guys in the mid or southern states. When a topic is viewed very differently based on greatly differing experience there will be great differences in opinion.

Norwester1 I think makes a valid point when he says; the guys from the south where they never experience the ridiculous extremes of northern Canada seem to have all the theories on 'nose' all figured out.......problem is....these theories dont hold up when put to the test in the extreme cold.....

Many of us up north have 25, 35, 45 and yes 55 or 60 years of experience. I dont think this topic has been a bunch of youngsters making these posts, and it's certianly not a group of guys that sit behind a computer all day that never run their dogs......

I think this has been a great post because it shows the passion for the sport that we all share. If there were not guys willing to battle for truth about beagles and breeding and traits etc. etc the sport would have died long ago.

As far as the sarcasm and jabs that fly on the boards goes, I think the thing to realize is the diversity on this board. You have everything from teenagers getting their first beagle to 80 year olds that have been beagling for 70 years. You have some that see these boards as informational mixed with humor and entertainment, you have some that see it as a complete joke, others think everything is gospel truth and every mixture in between.

I'm guilty of being sarcastic with others opinions but its meant to be in good taste. Sometimes humor exposes the error on someones opion, other times it makes it stronger. I never try to be mean spirited or hurtful. I try to have fun on the board and make some jokes, but I also learn from people, and have a good time. LaneLine has been on here a long time, and although I dont see him poking fun that often, I dont think he lost any sleep over any of the comments that were made in what I think was "fair fun". OR differing opinions. I have had my opinions mocked several times on here. Sometimes its really funny, other times I just ignore it, and yet other times it exposes my error. All in all I have a good time on here. It has provided hours of entertainment while deployed with the Army when I could'nt do what I love so much.......Running beagles!

If I offend anyone on here a simple PM asking me to stop is all it will take.......if not, Im going to continue to enjoy the board for what it is......a chat room where a bunch of crazy beaglers from all over the world discuss dogs and every crazy opinion we can come up with about them...........

Mybeagles