Not enough nose???

[klrconcrete]

I honestly cant get a feel for what I have in a pup by a year- year and a half and you are worried at 9 months? I think this may be premature, you may want to ease up just a bit, let the winter play out and see if the performance improves. Myself I wouldnt be overly concerned quite yet.

[Bunnyblaster]

And to help explain why I'm asking is this. In past years I had dogs that could not get it done on snow except on the "good scenting days". Last year the weather was so bad and I had no dogs that could get it done and this went on for day after day after day............ask Conroe cause he was with me for quite a few of those days. I vowed that I would no longer feed a dog that doesn't have a good enough nose to consistently run on all types of snow. I understand some days will be rougher than others but they have to at least be able to get enough scent to bark the majority of the time.........even if the track eventually peters out for one reason or another. I guess I don't want to be too premature but at the same time I don't want to put a ton of time into a pup and find out later on that I should have just let it go because say if it can't smell it now that ain't gonna change later on.

Keep em coming, I like all the opinions. It helps me decide if I'm headed in the right direction.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

the best snow dogs i have ever had could run a rabbit on snow at 6-7 months old, then they only got better. but i think the line of dogs you run have alot to do with it to.

Ditto, ImHo ur line reprsents great leaps and bounds when the running sucks for us southern boys, look at what norwester runs more than likely it is nothing we eiether trial or run, i have often wondered how deep snow hounds would fair in 100% humidity and temps around 110 in the middle of aug.So even though we have drawn from the northern gene pool we still dont have what it takes to run hare in -30 and 2" of fresh snow with 20mph winds, could both sides adapt? I dunno i have asked myself that several times. I admire anyone crazy enuff to brave extreme elements whether its ice or heat, both without a doubt take its toll on even the best of hounds and as well if they aint got the heart eiether will make em tap out.Once again i am basing this on my thoughts only.When we chose the northern brothers line of hounds i dont think my ideal of the north is as far as theres as i have never really known many pedigrees of the snow hounds run in the deep north.

[RiverBottom]

I vowed that I would no longer feed a dog that doesn't have a good enough nose to consistently run on all types of snow

If I took that vow I could save a lot on dog food

Been trying for years, gone through LOTS of dogs, only ever had one that I would say could get a good steady run at some point, every day. Don't think I ever tried running her on snow at 9 months old. At a year old, stayed by my feet all winter. Sometimes when the hare got close she would run it a ways, screw up the track, then come back while the other dogs came through and had to try to fix what she messed up NorWester would have culled her in a heartbeat

At two years old, she was running it ahead of the other dogs, and not screwing it up Got better and better, peaked about 4 - 8 years old. Started going down hill after that Once in a lifetime dog, exception to the rule, don't think I will ever have another but I will never quit trying.

How do you know if that 9 month old pup is going to be one of these? If you figure it out, let me know.

[Laneline]

I really believe, there are only two real reasons why dogs do not run in certain conditions:

1- They don’t know how.
2- They don’t want to.

The bad part is, some are unable to learn how and some will never desire to run in certain conditions. But they all have been born with the ability to do it.

Just my thoughts, I think it has more to do with the psyche of the dog and the desire of the dog than anything else, including its nose. It is a brains and desire thing more than a nose thing. How the dog reasons and makes decisions and just how much he desires that end result “the rabbit”. The bulk of hounds “almost any hound” has the goods, just not the brains {a combination of knowledge/wisdom/experience} to know how… or the desire/grit to actually go do it.

Some dogs will sacrifice their own bodies to get the game, some dogs put forth effort at their own convenience or when they feel like it. Some dogs have the brains to make changes and adapt to conditions {any conditions}, not to babble, not to backtrack, not to cold trail or ghost run. Some dogs only run well under “their own” conditions. Line control, speed, hunt, brains, search, desire, competiveness etc… It is all how they are bred genetically that determines the potential of all of this. No matter how much any of us love a certain bloodline, or if we have put all of our eggs in one basket and have a lot of money tied up in a certain line, nobody can get around “genetics”, and you can’t change what is already there. You can attempt to alter it in the future or drop it all together. Sometimes when breeding it is best if we add or back off from certain lines or start with a totally different line all together.

A hound is a hound. They are born with a superior sense of smell. This is nothing new to most of you, but a human has 5 million scent receptors in their nose. Dogs of the Terrier breeds have an average of 140 million etc… A Blood Hound has 300 million. The Beagle is born with around 225 million. The hounds have more than any other breed, they are born with it. The obvious question is, “are there beagles that have little more receptors than others?” They may be, but not enough to make that much of a difference. The Dachshund has only a 125 million and they have been used to track and run game for years in sub-0 and in extreme heat conditions throughout the world and the well bred ones have no problems doing it.

In Tennessee where I lived for several years and ran on leased Bowater land, I have seen dogs that won’t run in extreme heat and dogs in Ohio where I grew up, that won’t run in extreme cold. I have seen dogs that won’t run at night and dogs that won’t run when “off game” is in the area. I have seen dogs that won’t run with other dogs or in strange places. But the key word is “won’t”. It is not because they can’t. They choose not to run or pursue the game in certain scenarios.
You take that hound that won’t run in some of these conditions and put a freshly cooked steak on a plate 50 yards from it, it will smell it and find it, they can also smell you’re neighbors grill cooking a mile a way and know exactly when the female from 4 blocks away is in heat. There is nothing wrong with its nose, just the desire/grit and the choices that it makes in the field.

Every beagle is born with a certain psyche that makes them think a certain way and desire certain things. A good trainer can “mold & shape” some of these traits and turn them into great gundogs and Field Champions, but you still have what you have genetically and you will see the difference in a “trained super hound” and a “natural super hound” when it comes time to breed and you see what they reproduce, and watch what they do naturally on their own. But than again, some dogs are so “trainable”, and a really good trainer can make him a better dog than most dogs become naturally. It’s all about what you like and what you want.

As far as the pup you are referring to, in extreme conditions {hot or cold} I would only run the young hound with a few older experienced hounds only “every time”. They gain knowledge and experience like that. Young dogs with young dogs is like the blind leading the blind. None of the young dogs will benefit much like that. As far as having the brains to adjust and the desire to actually do it, that’s in the breeding. Take Care, Jim

[DavisFarms]

I really believe, there are only two real reasons why dogs do not run in certain conditions:

1- They don’t know how.
2- They don’t want to.

The bad part is, some are unable to learn how and some will never desire to run in certain conditions. But they all have been born with the ability to do it.

Just my thoughts, I think it has more to do with the psyche of the dog and the desire of the dog than anything else, including its nose. It is a brains and desire thing more than a nose thing. How the dog reasons and makes decisions and just how much he desires that end result “the rabbit”. The bulk of hounds “almost any hound” has the goods, just not the brains {a combination of knowledge/wisdom/experience} to know how… or the desire/grit to actually go do it.

Some dogs will sacrifice their own bodies to get the game, some dogs put forth effort at their own convenience or when they feel like it. Some dogs have the brains to make changes and adapt to conditions {any conditions}, not to babble, not to backtrack, not to cold trail or ghost run. Some dogs only run well under “their own” conditions. Line control, speed, hunt, brains, search, desire, competiveness etc… It is all how they are bred genetically that determines the potential of all of this. No matter how much any of us love a certain bloodline, or if we have put all of our eggs in one basket and have a lot of money tied up in a certain line, nobody can get around “genetics”, and you can’t change what is already there. You can attempt to alter it in the future or drop it all together. Sometimes when breeding it is best if we add or back off from certain lines or start with a totally different line all together.

A hound is a hound. They are born with a superior sense of smell. This is nothing new to most of you, but a human has 5 million scent receptors in their nose. Dogs of the Terrier breeds have an average of 140 million etc… A Blood Hound has 300 million. The Beagle is born with around 225 million. The hounds have more than any other breed, they are born with it. The obvious question is, “are there beagles that have little more receptors than others?” They may be, but not enough to make that much of a difference. The Dachshund has only a 125 million and they have been used to track and run game for years in sub-0 and in extreme heat conditions throughout the world and the well bred ones have no problems doing it.

In Tennessee where I lived for several years and ran on leased Bowater land, I have seen dogs that won’t run in extreme heat and dogs in Ohio where I grew up, that won’t run in extreme cold. I have seen dogs that won’t run at night and dogs that won’t run when “off game” is in the area. I have seen dogs that won’t run with other dogs or in strange places. But the key word is “won’t”. It is not because they can’t. They choose not to run or pursue the game in certain scenarios.
You take that hound that won’t run in some of these conditions and put a freshly cooked steak on a plate 50 yards from it, it will smell it and find it, they can also smell you’re neighbors grill cooking a mile a way and know exactly when the female from 4 blocks away is in heat. There is nothing wrong with its nose, just the desire/grit and the choices that it makes in the field.

Every beagle is born with a certain psyche that makes them think a certain way and desire certain things. A good trainer can “mold & shape” some of these traits and turn them into great gundogs and Field Champions, but you still have what you have genetically and you will see the difference in a “trained super hound” and a “natural super hound” when it comes time to breed and you see what they reproduce, and watch what they do naturally on their own. But than again, some dogs are so “trainable”, and a really good trainer can make him a better dog than most dogs become naturally. It’s all about what you like and what you want.

As far as the pup you are referring to, in extreme conditions {hot or cold} I would only run the young hound with a few older experienced hounds only “every time”. They gain knowledge and experience like that. Young dogs with young dogs is like the blind leading the blind. None of the young dogs will benefit much like that. As far as having the brains to adjust and the desire to actually do it, that’s in the breeding. Take Care, Jim

Jim I think this was a long way to say that some dogs are just to dumb and lazy to run in hard conditions.. I am just kidding, and I know your not talking about anyones dog in particular, but dogs in general, but I do agree that some dogs {lines} got it and some dogs {lines} don't and no matter how hard you try, you have what you have and nothing more, and it is all in the breeding. Also some breeders have "it" and some breeders don't. I have had many of those "dumb and lazy" dogs over the years, but the good ones I have had have a pattern in their pedigrees and how they are bred, and are bred by people that know dogs and are not kennel blind.

[mybeagles]

LaneLine,

The objection I would have to that theory is the case at hand. You have a dog that run great on sod, had good hunt, search, and all the desire to run a rabbit for hours, then all of a sudden when they get on snow the "tools" are there but they loose all their desire......

Dont make sense to me.....

This dog he mentions, and we have all had them, follows the pack around for 2 hours through the deep snow and cold, just doesnt have the desire to bark or smell the track......

If the dog stood by the truck I could believe your argument, but when they appear to be trying just not barking I cant buy it.....

Im guessing once warmer weather comes, this dog will all of a sudden get his disire back and his "psyche" will come back to him.

The best snow dog I ever owned made 4 year old proven dogs look foolish on bad snow when she was 9 months old. Those 4 year olds didnt lack the desire or psyche, they lacked the nose.

At Northland's snow trial several years ago all 26 dogs were trying there hardest to run the hare, but time and time again they proved they couldnt smell it. Thats when Green Bay Shooter worked his way up to the front and took over the trial. Why, because he had the nose power to run when the others didnt.....

Bunnyblaster,

IMO if the dog isnt barking it lacks nose and will NEVER have a good nose. It may get better but will never be good. Even the ones that start out with what seems to be a good nose never end up with a great nose. Dogs get better as they get older, the ones that start out real good and continue to get better for longer periods of time turn into the great ones. If you want snow dogs, cut your losses and try with some new pups in the spring.

Mybeagles

[Nailer]

I vowed that I would no longer feed a dog that doesn't have a good enough nose to consistently run on all types of snow

If I took that vow I could save a lot on dog food

Been trying for years, gone through LOTS of dogs, only ever had one that I would say could get a good steady run at some point, every day. Don't think I ever tried running her on snow at 9 months old. At a year old, stayed by my feet all winter. Sometimes when the hare got close she would run it a ways, screw up the track, then come back while the other dogs came through and had to try to fix what she messed up NorWester would have culled her in a heartbeat

At two years old, she was running it ahead of the other dogs, and not screwing it up Got better and better, peaked about 4 - 8 years old. Started going down hill after that Once in a lifetime dog, exception to the rule, don't think I will ever have another but I will never quit trying.

How do you know if that 9 month old pup is going to be one of these? If you figure it out, let me know.

i totally agree with riverbottom

[lee ga]

i tend to agree with laneline. im not gonna say that there are not hounds out there that have a better nose than others, but i firmly believe that most dogs are equal in the nose department. its how they process and react to the scent line that seperates them. i think it has more to do with concentration, levelhead, determination, experience, etc. ive heard time and time again about john does hound(we'll call her sue) that isnt worth a dime in tough scenting conditions compared to the rest of the hounds in the pack, but boy when conditions are favorable she(sue) leads the pack and leaves them 50 yards behind. how can this be? if the other hounds are so much better than sue in tough conditions, then certainly they should be superior to sue in favorable conditions also. maybe sue doesnt feel like putting forth the effort when conditions get tough. just my opinion and what i have experienced over the years.

[Laneline]

LaneLine,

The objection I would have to that theory is the case at hand. You have a dog that run great on sod, had good hunt, search, and all the desire to run a rabbit for hours, then all of a sudden when they get on snow the "tools" are there but they loose all their desire......

Dont make sense to me.....

This dog he mentions, and we have all had them, follows the pack around for 2 hours through the deep snow and cold, just doesnt have the desire to bark or smell the track......

If the dog stood by the truck I could believe your argument, but when they appear to be trying just not barking I cant buy it.....

Im guessing once warmer weather comes, this dog will all of a sudden get his disire back and his "psyche" will come back to him.

The best snow dog I ever owned made 4 year old proven dogs look foolish on bad snow when she was 9 months old. Those 4 year olds didnt lack the desire or psyche, they lacked the nose.

At Northland's snow trial several years ago all 26 dogs were trying there hardest to run the hare, but time and time again they proved they couldnt smell it. Thats when Green Bay Shooter worked his way up to the front and took over the trial. Why, because he had the nose power to run when the others didnt.....

Bunnyblaster,

IMO if the dog isnt barking it lacks nose and will NEVER have a good nose. It may get better but will never be good. Even the ones that start out with what seems to be a good nose never end up with a great nose. Dogs get better as they get older, the ones that start out real good and continue to get better for longer periods of time turn into the great ones. If you want snow dogs, cut your losses and try with some new pups in the spring.

Mybeagles

No offense, but I wouldn’t state a theory. Any of my statements are based on my 30+ years in the field with hounds and the advice of different breeders and gun hunters that have 60+, 45+, 50+ and 35+ years in the field with hounds under different conditions. These are simple facts I have learned myself and that others have shared with me, gained from experience in the field with hounds. I am not saying I can’t be wrong, I can be wrong just as quick and easy as the next guy. But I try not comment on things that I don’t know about. This particular issue I have seen over and over while gun hunting from age 8, and judging trials for over 12 years. This misunderstanding of the “hounds nose”, combined with the need for speed and not breeding for brains at all has been the demise of many lines today. It is almost like the Brace era except in reverse. No balance.

Actually I said it was a lack of desire “or” brains. Yes they may run for hours but they can’t put it together. I do believe they have the tools but cannot grasp or comprehend on how to use them. Having a flashlight in the dark is pointless, if you don’t know how to turn it on. What exactly is “lack of nose power”? The inability to smell? … a dog of another breed with half the amount of nose sensory cells in its nose can do it with no problems but some beagles can’t with what they have been born with? {twice the amount} Now that I don’t buy. I understand there may be some differences in “nose power” from beagle to beagle, but not enough to make a huge difference, unless they are not all “pure beagle”.

But I do believe that some dogs are quick learners, some are slow learners and some will never catch on to certain things and running in some difficult conditions especially under pressure, they just can’t grasp it. Just like some people can’t multi-task, you have to keep it simple for “fair weather dogs” for some dogs to do well. Most of us could do ok with general math in High School but stick us in a class of Calculus 3, Modern Algebra or Algebraic Number Theory and most of us would be totally lost. But yet there are children & teenagers from 12 to 17 that could breeze right through it. Some people if they study it for the next 15 years may slowly start to grasp it, but some never would.

It is not a thing where either the dog smells it or they don’t. The dog’s nose is the same and the scent is the same, the only difference is the circumstances and conditions which to some dogs more than others, are distractions that they cannot adjust to. There is reaction to every action. When a dog smells a rabbit, it reacts. How it reacts depends on its “psyche” and how it can adjust to different surroundings and conditions to make good decisions under bad conditions, especially under pressure by other dogs. This is why dogs react in a way of running a rabbit in the wrong direction, babbling, cold trailing, ghost running, being tight mouthed or quitting. This is not caused by a “lack of nose”, some dogs do this if it is cold, hot, wet, dry, ran in a large pack, ran solo, ran at night or every time the barometer changes. They do it because when the conditions change and they are taken out of their element, they can’t keep it together between their ears.
Some dogs will still follow and continue to try but they lack brains to adjust, and some dogs will just quit out of frustration and a lack of desire. Some of these will stand at your feet or go off and try to do their own thing all alone, while the more complete dogs continue to run.

I wouldn’t put myself or my child in a class that we couldn’t grasp or pass. Why would we buy dogs that don’t have the ability to grasp and adjust to different aspects of our choice of running conditions. There are lines that for the most part have what it takes. A person might as well purchase, line-breed and maintain one of these lines, rather than mess around with one of the many others. I do agree with you that “Dogs get better as they get older, the ones that start out real good and continue to get better for longer periods of time turn into the great ones”. I agree with this and it was well put by you.

[Gary Reed]

I would try a little motivational class with your pup one on one. Back to the basicks tease the pup with a tame rabbit in a cage then bust the rabbit lose see if she how the pup goes after it does the pup chase it down then try it again but let the rabbit get a head start so the dog has to smell it out. I know this is not new info but lets you know more about the dog with out the distractions of the other dogs. You may have to spend more time with this pup with out the others. Just an idea to try I am not as experienced as most people on here that have gave great advice but even kids need motivation with out distractions once in a while or alot.

[NorWester1]

Wonder how Bloodhounds ended up with more nose power than Beagles? Also wonder how Beagles ended up with more nose power than terriers?

Selective breeding that's how

...... and that's how more nose power, which ever way you would like to define it can be obtained for running in tough conditions.


Laneline wrote,

But I try not comment on things that I don’t know about. This particular issue I have seen over and over while gun hunting from age 8, and judging trials for over 12 years. ]

You've got all this experience running in tough conditions?

[Bunnyblaster]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the notion that every hound has the same nose. I know you said you believe that they are all each a little different but there I believe there is more of a difference than you may think. Do you smell and see and hear everything exactly the same way as everyone else??? The obvious answer is no so why would hounds be any different??? I can agree that using the nose is more involved than just having a good or bad nose to start with. Obviously brains and desire are a big part of how they use the tools they have but I've seen some very smart dogs that can't smell a fairly fresh track in cruddy conditions..........I just got rid of one this last fall and that's why. This dog was fine on sod but get him into some crappy winter conditions and he struggles. I Literally watched this dog trying for hours to help the pack out.........hunting hard.........working checks the best he could...........and the whole time not being able to smell a track near as I could tell. I relate it to myself a little even though this is on the extreme side of things. I am color blind and when we are blood tracking a deer no matter how hard I try to help I just can't. I get to stand by last blood until they find some more. Like I said I realize this is a little extreme but we're each different and so are dogs. You'll never convince me otherwise unless you could back it up with something else.............scientific evidence??? I don't know???

[RiverBottom]

Laneline, I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue, based on many years of trying to run hare in Minnesota in winter. The dog I mentioned above did not have more desire than other dogs, in fact she was on the lazy side. More brains? Not that I could tell. She just had more nose. She could smell a track and run it when other, good dogs could not. Saw days when I could put those other dogs on a track less than a minute old and they did not know it was there, the other dog could move the same track well enough to gain ground on the hare and when she got up close to it, she could RUN it. You can call it nose or magic or whatever, but she had more of it than any other dog I have seen except her mother.

Don't have one like her now and I'm back to having days the dogs just can't run.

Unless you are trying to hunt on old, deep snow that has been through many nights when the temp hit 20 or 30 below zero (been close to 40 below here a couple nights this year), you really can't know what it is like.

[rabbitsmoker]

I owned a dog that run the same evertime out no matter the condition snow-heat-rain frezzin temp he run about 7-8 speed seen days he would drive that rabbit very few barks from the other dogs i guess eveybody that ever run with him bred to him and some that just heard about him never seen one of the pups like him they was good dogs but nothing like him where did his nose go you would think at least one would have got it he is dead now still off spring everywhere still nothing like him