A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Measuring has been an all time issue in any club, is there a way to correct that? Probably but no one would agree caue it wouldn't suit them. According to what I've been reading, people start cursing only when the oversize hounds place. Why not speak up before they release the hounds?
Should your hound be awarded points in both classes as seperate points.
Any how for that hound who supposedly was a 15 in a 13 inch class, congrats on the win, its not your fault your hound beat the others or is it?
It was his day, probably would of won the 15 inch class that day as well.
Big Dog, You are 100% right on about the Large Pack and the dogs they way they handle. But you know, I have dogs that handle fairly well compared to most and when I go hunting they come when called. I think when everyone goes in screaming for thier dogs at a large pack trial some of the younger dog and even some of the vet dogs get a little worked up by this hollaring. Also alot of these dogs just are one man dogs so it makes it pretty hard for marshals to collect dogs as well. People and AKC have turned large pack in to a lazy mans sport. Dump the dogs in a fence, Handler stay out. Marshals and judges chase the dogs for 3 or so hours and then everyone go in screaming... not good for any dog!!! But I still go!! We all still go!! You ever heard that saying "Take a kid fishing,hunting or a kid on ice is seldom in hot water".. Take and dog hunting and you probally won't be the last one out of the enclosure.. Handling your dogs and gettng to know them will help in all aspects of beagling.
Time to make a new rule. If you run your dog in a cast with an oversized dog it is your own fault. Point out to the judges that the dog in question is oversided and have the hound measured before you go out. If you dont protect yourself from cheaters nobody else will either. If your dog gets beat by that dog on that day you have no right to complain. For the guys that have been running oversized hounds do the right thing and run in the correct format. If you have a hound good enough to place in the 13 inch class it will probably place in the 15 as well.
Bowling's Old Blood Beagles BOBB's Line of Hounds Selective breeding of Old Branko "NINJA"/Ranger Dan = BOBB's Line
ackermanich wrote:...I have seen 14" hounds cower being measured into the 15" class. It was obvious they were under 15", they simply didn't like being put under the stand. Now should this handler spend the time working with this hound to get him to stand? and what if he never will stand? Should we consider this dog not a trial dog because of his inability to stand under a measuring stand. Isn't this all about rabbit hunting? Am i going to leave this dog at home when i go rabbit hunting because he wont stand? I don't think so.
Let me play devil's advocate here. Yes, the handler should spend time teaching him to stand for measurement. It doesn't take that much time. He should stand to be painted, too. It's part of trialing. Especially AKC trialing, which is mostly what this concerns. The AKC rule book also mentions that a dog should handle. Do you spend time teaching your dogs to handle? Most people do -- especially those who hunt them. Yes, they are hunting dogs, but if you plan to trial them, then they need to be put through the paces. My $.02
What i am trying to say is, common sense should come into play when measuring a hound. Yes, i think dogs should be measured, and yes i think dogs should be running in their rightful class. You can put a hound under a stand, and may not get the same measurement every time, and yes you should attempt to measure the hound in it's " natural stance". Sometimes due to the fact that we are measuring a living creature and not a fabricated piece of steel, a hound may not stand to be measured and this is where common sense( not by Thomas Paine) comes into play. It should be obvious if the hound is closer to one class or the other. The only dispute i have is the idea if the hound won't stand, that it should not be measured, and again common sense should be displayed by the judges that measure them. There are some hounds out there that will simply not stand no matter how much you work with them, and this can be their nature, but should this take away from their ability in the field. As stated before this is a sport that promotes a hounds ability in the field " a field trial". And no where in the AKC rules have i found where dogs must stand to be painted? I have attended AKC trials where dogs weren't even painted. And it was never a dispute, about the ability of a hound handeling, which is a necessity for the rabbit hunter and the trialer (not sure where that came from).....Another reason a hound may not stand-- Let's say you purchase an AKC trial worthy hound off of some rabbit hunter. The rabbit hunter has never worked trying to get the hound to stand for measure, let alone knowing the actual measurement of the dog. His concern is bringing the rabbit to the gun. You watch this hound in the field, you ask all the necessary questions about the dog, such as HANDLE, OFF GAME ISSUES etc. anything that is not observable in the field. And it is obvious to you the hound is under 15". You purchase this hound and take him to a field trial, you make the winners pack. You take the dog to measure and he will not stand, and you are sent to the truck. Now again i agree the dogs should be measured, but how in the world could that be promoting a rabbit dog, due to a technicality because the dog won't stand. That is my only dispute. I personally have never had anyone purchase a dog from me ask "Will the dog stand to be measured". In this scenario, should the guy that purchased the dog asked that question? should he have taken a measuring stand with him to purchase the dog. And yes my dogs do handle. Will they stand to be measured, so far yes. Do i work with them to stand NO.
HEY,if you use a measuring stand and measure a dogs heighth, wether it be 13 or 15 inch stand the end result is their, ok or to big. I think the question is answered, quit trying to bend the rulers, their straight. GOD BLESS
I think what we need to understand in the measuring part, is what is a natural stance. I'm using a photo of double eagles dog, as to what I consider, if measuring a dog is a natural stance. I think this should be the standard that we are all going by. I alos think it should be the handlers responsiabilty to present his or her dog for the judges to measure. OK hit me with your best shot, I've got broad shoulders and a week mind, but that comes with old age.
To old to cut the mustard, you can always run beagles
D V, a hound is only measured once during the trial. So if you measure out of either class you are already pre-measured for the appropriate class. As far as LPH measuring saying in or out, you can always ask what the measurement was. The 13" male class the numbers are way down, if you have 8-10 hounds in competion you're lucky, most of the time you're lucky to make the class. In LPH size really does matter, there are exceptions but very rare. Campbell
I said the same thing about this dog the other day, and I do agree with you it should be the handlers job to make sure the dog stands.
I also want to add my two cents on what WELLS WOODS said about not wanting the judges to do official measurements. I would not have any problem with a judge measuring my hounds if he/she does it correctly without any buddy measuring. We as handlers put our faith in you to judge the best dogs when they are running why not put our faith in you to read a measurement. It looks to me that reading a stick is much easier than judging a cast of hounds.
As a judge not everyone is going to agree with you on your call "different point of views, pushing the rabbit, line control, ex.) but they would all have to agree with you when there is a measuring stick that says 13 and 1/2 inch. There is nothing to argue about the dog is what it is, if its my dog or a guy that you road to the trial with.
As far as having a dog "officially measured" I dont see a problem with it as long as that dog is true to the format, but as for these dogs that are "officially measured" and are a true 14 inch hound running in the 13 inch format that is just a way of cheating. As judges it should be your responsibility along with the other people in that cast to call it and measure that hound, if its "officially measured" or not.
I say run your dog in the format that it belongs in or just dont run your dog!!! Dont be a cheater and this topic will never be brought up again.
Bowling's Old Blood Beagles BOBB's Line of Hounds Selective breeding of Old Branko "NINJA"/Ranger Dan = BOBB's Line
I think a true borderline dog (12 7/8"-13 1/2") will measure in more than it will measure out. They usually will measure a little smaller after they run anyway. If we do away with official measuring, most guys will stop running a 14" hound in the little class if it keeps measuring out. Judges have enough pressure on them, just judging the hounds performance in the field; why add more by bringing him a stand shy, 13 1/2" -14" hound or a proud standing, 13"-13 1/4" hound & asking him to determine what this hound will measure for the rest of it's field trial career. I say let AKC put those measurements on a dog; they've got the money to train someone to do this if it's that important to them. My view is not directed toward any certain dog; I just think we should level the playing field and let the judges measure them all that make the winner's pack.
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
I think a lot of folks on this thread are forgetting what is being determined and by what standard. All you guys not wanting a set standard by which all dogs are measured must have some reason to not want it and I believe the framers of the rules felt a need to have address such reasons or issues. With that being said ALL you folks that trial know what the rules state and you should make sure you apply each and every word and understand what that word would be in the rules. The framers of these rules did not arbitrarly throw critical control points into the rules just for the pleasure of doing so. Every one of these are a means of placing objectivity to what would otherwise be nothing more than a subjects (subjectivity) view of the matter which is what happens when folks don't enforce the written word. As I have clearly stated before I have not trialed a beagle in any format but from these conversations I have read through the rules pertinent to whats being debated. I have previously explained what I felt the intent of the framers of these AKC rules for measuring are and they are clear. The dogs must be measured using an approved measuring devise, after being posed. These rules also make provisions for NOT measuring a dog but yet many have tried to skirt that language in the rules. Another thing that comes to my mind is if the judge is responsible for the measurements of the dogs and once put under his control the judge has the responsibility to assure that each and every dog is held to the very same standard or critical control point. I know that some registries such as UKC, that I hunted with coon hounds had a formal appeal procedure that was followed when someone felt the judge and or the master of hounds made a mistake which was then reviewed by a committee after having tried to settle the dispute with the handles, judge and the MOH. Regardless there should be an appeal process as the granting of a title by any registry should mean that the dog has earned that degree by adhereing to each and every word as described in the rules for doing so. This is in fact why there are different registries that judge different classes under different rules. When you guys take your dog to any registries trial you are asking that your dog be judged by applying each and evdry word of that registries rules and if you got a dog that will not stand to be measured by the posing standard you need to be sent to the truck of disqualified as your dog has not met the standard to compete. The same would hold true if a dog over 15" were allowed to compete as that is not only or the trial rules but the breed standard as well. To allow any deviation from the printed word is then to allow an advantage to one and disadvantage to others and Allowing the rules to be broken. The playing field should be fair and equtable to ALL. The rules are printed in black and white and the word "POSE" is there along with provisions for a measurerer to NOT measure a dog so those of you claiming every dog HAS to be measured is not in accordance with what I read in the rules as they do make provisions for NOT doing so. Some have stated that a trial is to determine the best dog when it comes to running rabbits and that is somewhat the case BUT not the sole case. The registries have trials to judge the dog that best adheres to their set of rules, which outlines the objectives to meet and a means of measuring them including meeting the requirements of the dog being measured.
According to what I've been reading, people start cursing only when the oversize hounds place. Why not speak up before they release the hounds?
