Patch hound question

[MIDTENN BEAGLER]

i am lookin at tradin for these patch females but i am not to familiar with wat they are out of. i am tryin to figure out if they are pure patch or not. any info or pedigrees on these dogs will be greatly appreciated.


female 1 sire: peter's all patch boss
dam: greys rock ridge patch emy

female 2 sire: let um run steel buckshot
dam: garr hibb christy

thanks midtenn

[PREACHERS,KENNEL]

the 1st is from carrol peters in ky. i belive ..

[doubleb]

i think the first dog is all patch breeding in the background not sure on the second.i will tell you its impossible to get a pure patch hound becauce the only person you could get one from Willet Randall has been dead many many years.

[PREACHERS,KENNEL]

double then why do i have an 8 generration pedigree with nothing but patch hounds??

[doubleb]

the same reason i have branko top and bottom but own no branko dogs because the man that developed the line didnt breed the dogs they simply came from his line you have a line of dogs with patch blood but the only true patch hounds were bred by willet randall only branko dogs are bred by branko kennel. if you breed two dogs with patch linage then the pups from that breeding is your breeding not patch. i have a double heli prop bitch and a male prop on bottom lumber jack top if i breed them together i get my breeding not branko

[marr24]

If ALL of the dogs in a pedigree go back to Willet Randall's kennel-those are patch hounds. Yes, the man is no longer here but I think he would be proud to know that there are those out there still striving to breed dogs to his standard. I think it's common knowledge that these dogs weren't bred by Willet, but it also must be recognized that these dogs can all be traced DIRECTLY to his kennel and he is given credit for them when the "patch" name is put in the pedigree. You can no longer register a dog in AKC with the Patch kennel name by itself-so owners use creative ways to do it-in this way people can look at a pedigree and know that it is bred patch, but it is not from the actual Beaver Meadows Patch kennel. The followers of the patch line look up to Willet as the supreme houndsman, his vision for this line of dogs has been very well documented and the current breeders simply try to follow in his footsteps.
This argument comes up every couple of months, use the search function and you'll see that some good points have been made.

[doubleb]

you answered your own post people try and follow willets breeding practice but you dont know if the hounds you like willet would have liked or would have breed and if you think willet would have like all the hound breed today with his name connected to it i will say i will have to disagree with you on that one

[EARLYBIRD]

I never saw a picture of Pure Patch Hound lemon colored out of the orignal stock. A lot of white with brown ears and head an brown ring around there tail all I ever saw.they look like a minature fox hound for sure.

[letumrun]

female one is all patch
boss came from dennis goald and i think the emmy dog did to


female 2 is not all patch i own let um run steel buckshot and he is patch but i think the kristy female was branko bred

[sgc]

I've heard it said, its not the line but the branches within the line. Just because a person breeds hounds, Patch hounds in this case, that go back 100% to the original line doesn't mean thats the way Willet Randall would have bred them. He may very well have culled some of these dogs. He knew what he wanted & whatever (Patch) branch a person is looking to buy from now, could be different than the type Willet Randall would have bred. I, also, think some relate a pale colored dog with Patch bloodline to having a Willet Randall dog; I don't believe thats true at all.

[marr24]

you answered your own post people try and follow willets breeding practice but you dont know if the hounds you like willet would have liked or would have breed and if you think willet would have like all the hound breed today with his name connected to it i will say i will have to disagree with you on that

How could I answer my own post if I didn't ask a question? LOL
I understand what you're saying and I don't think anyone could disagree with your logic. All I can say is that I would be darn proud to have people still passionate and running my "line" (so to speak) of hounds long after I'm gone. One of the things that is slightly different about the patch line versus others is that these dogs are very line bred, they are a family of hounds-this can't be said about many others and certainly not Branko's-they outcross constantly. It is obviously true that Willet isn't making the breeding decisions nowadays so I won't argue that point with you LOL. All I can say is that the patch enthusiasts must be doing something right because nearly 50 yrs after Willet's death the patch line is still going strong, and many could argue that it is gaining in popularity.

He may very well have culled some of these dogs. He knew what he wanted & whatever (Patch) branch a person is looking to buy from now, could be different than the type Willet Randall would have bred

Yea, that's true, the man culled like no other. He bred an insane amount of hounds and then proceded to cull until he had it right.

I never saw a picture of Pure Patch Hound lemon colored out of the orignal stock. A lot of white with brown ears and head an brown ring around there tail all I ever saw.they look like a minature fox hound for sure.

I've very rarely seen a patch hound nowadays that was lemon too. Most are tan/white and many of his were tan/white too. The majority of his dogs were open marked with tan patches (hence the name patch). Almost all of the pics I've seen of his hounds were in black and white so it's hard to tell the exact shade of brown/tan/lemon the patches were. He also bred some tri-color blanket backed dogs when that fad hit the states. Today most people think of patches as lemon and white, but they come in a varitey of colors (although I've yet to see a bluetick) and what most call lemon and white (myself included) are actually tan/white. He himself stated that his goal was to get them as white as possible.

[S.R.Patch]

Swifteagle Patch comes to mind...

[CPC]

doubleb, I like ur thinking, pure is out of any stock if the original breeder didn't make the cross.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I must state that I agree totally with the sentiments expressed by doubleb,cpc and sgc.Willet Randall has been dead for close to 50 years and he was close to 90 when he passed.So by anybody's reckoning it's been a LOOOOOONG time since Willet put his personal "stamp of approvel" on a cross between two of his hounds that he thought worthy of breeding.
The quote"If all the dogs in a pedigree go back to Willet Randall's kennel-those are Patch hounds." I don't follow that line of thinking at all. What specifically is Patch? To me Patch would be Willet Randall's creation and his alone. HIS decesions,HIS insights,HIS intimate knowledge of the two dogs being crossed,HIS assessment of running styles,HIS meshing of compatible traits,HIS culling of weaknesses,etc.The quote"Still striving to breed dogs to his standards" is really what I'm talking about.Who among us can say what those standards were other then what they've read in the book "A Wilderness Patchwork"? Alot of today's "Patch" people weren't born when Willet was making his bones in the beagle world and they have made crosses that are THEIR decesions and everytime they do that they have introduced another aspect of what the dogs is .Just because you put "Pache" or some other creative deriviation of the name for every time you raise a litter and it goes back oh so many generations doesn't mean that you have captured or continued dogs "just like Willet had". If you spend anytime at all in the study of genetics and percentages of familial relationships you'll find out in a hurry how just one outcross will skew your idea of "pure".
Just one little thing to think about.Patch hounds were hare hounds from up-state New York.Now it seems that more than 50 years after the fact most of the "Patch" people are all in the south using their hounds on cottontail.You think that these current hounds are still being bred and possess the same charecteristics "just the way Willet did"?

[sgc]

Also, it seems that whenever anyone talks about Patch hounds they talk about breeding for color. We all know that color doesn't run the rabbit. Whenever breeding for a specific trait takes precedence over the whole package, thats a problem. This may not be happening in Patch hounds, but it certainly gets talked about the most.