cold nose

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:46 am

NYH, Hallaluya! Thats what Im talking about!

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:14 am

I agree with the AKC rulebook only because I was a hunter first and knew what a good dog was. I believe anyone who rabbit hunts a lot will agree with what the AKC rulebook has to say about houndwork. Read it completely before you make a judgement. Yes, it lists faults that most dogs have, but it also says that the slightly faulty hound that succeeds is preferred over the stylist that fails.

laal · Post by **laal** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:09 pm

Wells Woods, I think you have said it.

I belive a dog opening on a cold trail distracts the other dogs that should be hunting there own rabbit. I can live with some popping off but not a lot of it. (my opinion)

Big nose dogs do not have to open on a cold trail. I think some of ya'll have never ran with a cold nosed dog that DIDN"T open on a cold trail. If you have what is there not to like about it? Why would you want it to open?

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:39 pm

Chris: That part of Ray Libbys article where he said the mouthyness was eventually bred out of them in favour of an honest hound really must have got you PO'd. I wasn't goping to mention anything about that but you've convinced me that I should.

A fault is a fault. Everyones hounds have one or another. It's not my fault that your hounds have this one.

Actually my answer to the post you are speaking of was to shoot no rabbits over the hounds until they are at least well started and then shoot only a few. There was no slip. I meant it. Hounds learn their job by doing and they can't do on a dead rabbit. The question was something like how to get the best experiance on the hounds and that of course would best be gained by letting the hounds run. If you beleive hounds learn more from a dead rabbit then they do from a live one they are running I wouldn't be surprised. There are hunters who beleive that the hound work is more important then the number of rabbits shot. I don't expect you to understand that.

Good for Bev. I do the same sometimes on certain posts.

The conditions we've had lately are about as tough as they get. It rained hard on the snow and then froze solid. Still running in it though without any cold trailing

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:32 pm

Joe West wrote:Chris: That part of Ray Libbys article where he said the mouthyness was eventually bred out of them in favour of an honest hound really must have got you PO'd.

You're right, Joe. I do get PO'd to think that oftentimes nose gets watered down in favor of perfect mouth, by rule-book stomping theorists. If you have your way and things keep going like they're going, nose will get totally bred out of hounds and everyone will follow your lead and just stay inside when conditions aren't optimum.

Joe West wrote:The question was something like how to get the best experiance on the hounds and that of course would best be gained by letting the hounds run. If you beleive hounds learn more from a dead rabbit then they do from a live one they are running I wouldn't be surprised.

Hounds learn a lot and benefit from shooting rabbits in front of them; especially young hounds. You'd realize that if you ever killed one. From listening to you for a while now I'd wager that you've killed more rabbits with your rulebook than you have with a shotgun. Am I right?

Condemning a gundog that occasionally opens on a cold track and produces, in favor of perfect mouthed hound won't only get you into the 'Joe West Hall of Fame', but it'll also guarantee you some slow days afield, but hey, if that's your cup of tea, more power to you.

steve · Post by **steve** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:09 pm

I quess it's kind of hard to kill very many rabbits with a shaging stick isn't it JOE?
JOE why is it when you talk about these cold icy conditions your running in you never tell us how cold it is when you start is it 10deg 20 deg 0 deg,or when I asked you specific questions on hunting conditions you never say hey I hunted on days like that,or I can relate to those type of days,conditions ect.you always tip toe around and never tell us I see a few other guys agree with me on how you are.You say your not a field trialer yet ever time you post you refer to the rule book as law.I wonder if it was your ancestors that started the walkie talkie type beagles,your dogs don't cold trail,don't get a lot of game shot to them,you don't use a shock collar cause you claim to be able to run your dogs down,claim your dogs get 100% of jumped rabbits ect,ect ect. You ask other to answer your questions but can never seem to answer questions asked of you and if the heat gets turned up you feel your getting picked on.So JOE on a serious note tell us all some of the worst type conditions weather temps you ran your dogs in and they produced the meat,and sitting next to the fire when it's 0deg.2 week old icy snow daydreaming that your dogs are pounding rabbit after rabbit to the gun doesn't count.Steve

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:31 pm

all dogs have faults.... i wanted a pup out of hillbillys faulty hound since i first heard about her,i love a hound a little faulty but does it on the tough days. ive learned to accept the fact that my dogs have faults... dogs not being able to run is the BIG FAULT i dont want them to cold trail.... but i want them to run everyday... i think that by selecting dogs with less faults.we increase the number of dogs that have the big one... cant run because of conditions... in the north in the winter bad conditions arent the exception they are what is normal... today was super running..here. or i should say from late morning on was.. boy they looked great today.. pete

bunnycide · Post by **bunnycide** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:50 pm

I like a dog that can trail up a rabbit, but keep his mouth shut while doing it. Sure ive seen dogs that could cold trail up a rabbit for thirty minutes, opening up all the time. And finally jump the rabbit.. occasinally... But the very best dogs ive seen, the dogs that could run a rabbit in any conditions (in north carolina) were near perfect with their mouth...I can stand a dog giveing a little mouth if I know the dog well and am pretty sure he's going to make a rabbit out of it and aint just "cold babbling"...Im not getting in one camp or the other but I do say that a dog doesnt have to be mouthy to have a superior nose...

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:24 pm

Pete,
My big nose girl is about twelve now (I think) and she had only one pup in a pregnancy I did not even know came about. The pup is a male and he is a little over five months now and I am about to start running him with mom. If I had even one more out of her I would have made sure you got it. I feel I need to keep him in case she is unable to have anymore and because he is the last pup sired by my male Blazer before he died. He is a smart little fella and I hope he has even half the hunt, nose and "mouth" LOL as his mother. I will be back out in the morning at 6:30 am working my pups and harrassing the local rabbit and hare population. It has been tough here as of late because it warmed up so much and melted much of the snow and then refroze. We have not had an additional trace of snow in over a week and the ground is like an ice skating rink. Today it got real warm (60 degrees) and the snow got like a big snowcone, all grainy. By the time I got to get out my area close to home had already been trampled to death. Looks like they had a good time! So I came back home and worked around the kennel. I plan to put in a full day tomorrow and I'm sure some bunnies will bite the dust. Normally I just run the heck out of them but tomorrow is a shooting day for the hounds and my cousin who loves to eat them. We will take no prisoners!!
Peace,
NYH.....and his mouthy meathounds

Goes · Post by **Goes** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:18 am

I have a real good friend who has a cold nose super slow work every blade of grass and ever stump tree and a beetles but to get the rabbit going. The first time I ran with him and his dog, I just thought, this is the slowest dog I have ever seen in my life. I teased him that I could go home, paint my house, wait for it to dry and come back for the shot on the first circle

I mean my dogs would be 100 yards a head of it. Right up until the conditions were the worse. Nothing but ice, 10 degrees and the wind just a howling.
At this point I feel in love with his dog. He would work and work and work and work and well, you get the picture until he would finally jump it, then my dogs were gone. But there were many days I wouldn't have had as many runs if it wasn't for his ole blue.
Not the kinda dog I would want everyday to be running with, but I wouldn't mind feeding him at all, then again I am easy to please

Hey NYH. I finally got a little Blue Male. He's 4 months old now he's the coolest. Looks a lot like mousie.

Goes

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:03 am

Hey Goes-- Picture in your mind what that would be like with a dog with the same tracking ability that wasn't slow and didn't bark out of place and will reach a little if conditions demand. My 2 hunting buddies have said several times that Sadie had lost the rabbit and was swinging, but they soon learned that she was shutting up and running the track where the scent was faint. She is a little tight mouthed at times and will even shut up on a hot rabbit when she sees the hunter.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:03 am

WELLS WOODS wrote:I agree with the AKC rulebook only because I was a hunter first and knew what a good dog was. I believe anyone who rabbit hunts a lot will agree with what the AKC rulebook has to say about houndwork. Read it completely before you make a judgement. Yes, it lists faults that most dogs have, but it also says that the slightly faulty hound that succeeds is preferred over the stylist that fails.

I somewhat agree.

WOuldn't it be nice if they judged that way though. Bring a slightly faulty hound down here and see how long it stays down. That is why, I do not run AKC.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:42 am

Chris: The problem is that you have sold the hounds short when it comes to scenting ability. You just cannot beleive a hound can have a superior nose and at the same time have an honest mouth. Somehow you have formed the oppinion that if a hound is not mouthy or does not cold trail he cannot have a superior nose. You beleive it so strongly that you disregard the words that are written in front of you as in the case of Ray Libby's article. It says the mouthyness was bred out of them but it does NOT say the nose was bred out of them. That is not a theory it is history. I wonder if part of the problem is sour grapes. The trick is to breed for superior nose and honest mouth.

Certainly when we shoot a rabbit in front of the hounds we could use it for a training session. We might teach them not to eat the rabbit or we might have been teaching them to fetch and are now to the point of stepping up to actual shot game or we might be breaking them to the sound of gunfire but in such a case there is no need to actually shoot the rabbit. Some say the hounds need to get a rabbit shot in front of them to know what they are chaseing. I never beleived that and always thought it would have to be a vary stupid hound to not be able to figure out he was chaseing a rabbit. No, I think the best way for the hounds to gain experinace is by running their rabbit and if we want them to learn from the death of a rabbit then the best way for that to happen is to let the hounds catch him. When we shoot the rabbit the learning stops short of where it would have if we had allowed the hounds to account for their rabbit on their own.

I don't shoot many rabbits. I shoot some now and again but not many. I enjoy the chase much more then I do shooting the rabbit. When the rabbit is shot the fun is over for both me and the hounds until they find another. You enjoy the shooting and would rather shoot the rabbit then enjoy a lengthy chase. Either way is fine unless the rabbits are shot too quickly for the hounds to enjoy themselves too. When we shoot the rabbit he is accounted for and the hound has done his job but it is a much easier job then makeing the hound acocunt for the rabbit himself and make him go until the rabbit is caught or holed.

I don't condemn a hound for minor faults, but I do recognize a fault when one is displayed. A fault is a fault and nothing can change that, not even if a favoured hound has the fault. Condemning a hound for a minor fault won't gain you any points with me but recognizing that the hound has a fault and then demeriting properly according to the severity of the fault (how much it fails to contribute or interfears with the chase) will.

Steve: I'm out of time but I'll be back.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:08 am

URGH!!!!!! I just wasted an hour typing a response to this post and lost the whole thing. I will not go back and try to do it again. I will leave it at this. It is down pour raining and I refuse to go swimming with the hounds. Sour grapes my eye!!! Joe bring forth a hound that will tell me in a human voice "Hey Hillbilly I can smell a rabbit right now but I won't bark cause it's still laying down and I want you to be proud of me and I don't want to embarrass my packmates because they either cannot smell the rabbit yet or are to stupid to tell us and I want to be a good little politically correct beagle and to not bring shame or embarrassment to my owner or packmates by speaking out of turn". Until someone produces a hound to tell me differently I stick by my position that each hound has a level of excitement it must reach to trigger it to open. The level may be different in each hound and the ability to reach it may be different depending on the hounds ability to smell. But I refuse to believe any hound has the level of intelligence or sophistication to "CHOOSE" not to open because it "KNOWS" the rabbit is not standing on it's feet. Now I need to go since I wasted so much time when I lost my post , you would have liked it I think. Oh well.......Mousie is out there with the truck warming it up and driving across the lawn to pick up Candy and Chickadee I hope she remembers to go gas the truck before we leave. She told me she would! I can't remember if she said she wanted cream in her coffee this morning or not....oh well she will have to deal with it.
And by the way while I may not choose to fill the back of my truck with dead rabbits cause I hate to clean them and have eaten enough to last a life time but I don't condemn those who leagally shoot every one they want to clean and eat themselves. We are, at least I am first and formost a hunter and thats what I do. I like to show the hounds the fruit of their labor from time to time and to keep the use to the gunfire because it is all part of the life of a gundog. But I do agree to some degree (how scary is this) with Joe that an experienced hound does not need to see a dead rabbit to know what it is chasing. They should know after they have sight chased and mouthed a few as pups. Gotta go now the rain stopped and my hounds are honking the horn.........suppose they are trying to say something? Wait let me see what the book says!

Peace,
NYH

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:26 am

NYH, without being there, I'm not sure that what you described was cold trailing. If the dog was able to produce the rabbit in that amount of time, it doesn't sound to me like she was popping off on tracks made hours before. I remember judging a licensed trial on a day when hardly a hound could open. Not what most folks think of as a terrible day- bright sun, temps in the 50's, but 2 feet of old snow on the ground. A hound could not cold trail on this day because no hound could lift scent off a jumped hare that was just minutes old. The winning dog not only backtracked (it DID correct itself) but reran lines at times and popped off a bit too much in the check area. On another day, we would have picked this hound up in a hurry, but on this day, she did 10 times more work than anyone else and we could have shot a hare or two off her if we'd have been hunting. Now I'm going to throw a fly in the ointment and make the claim that temperature has little to do with scenting. Lots of folks brag that their hounds are great on snow but that's not much of a claim. Snow, when conditions are good, is one of the easiest conditions to run on. I have no doubt that there are plenty of hounds that can't run on snow at all, but I suspect they can't run on any other condition either. I'll give you my most recent example of this. Saturday I took 3 hounds out hunting. Temperature was 12 at 8 AM and later may have gotten up to 25 or so. The day started sunny but soon clouded up with a stiff northeast wind. There was about a foot of snow on the ground that had been there about a week, rained on and refroze, but we had just a dusting of fresh snow on top that had fallen during the night. The dogs ran non-stop all day. We'd kill a hare and they'd have another one going within 10 minutes. The dogs looked about as good as a dog could be. Monday, I took the same dogs again. I decided to hunt further south, within a mile of the ocean where there was almost no snow to give the dogs' feet a break as they were a bit tender from running on the crust. Temp was 22 at 8 AM and it warmed to 45 by afternoon. Not a breath of wind. Ideal, right? It took 45 minutes to get a start, which was a sight chase. Once they lost sight of the hare, the run degenerated into pick and go, long check, pick, pick, pick. Eventually a dead loss. After nearly an hour of this we moved a short ways to new ground. One dog opened almost immediately, but had trouble distinguishing which direction the hare went. Another dog (who I've NEVER seen bark out of place) opened a couple of times but they gave up on the track a few minutes later. As the day went on, things improved a bit and they had a few runs that were poor by my standards but still good enough to be able to shoot a hare. But if someone had seen these hounds, they would have said they had no nose. All these hounds have run well at 25 below zero and the male has as good a nose as I've ever seen. Some of our best hunts ever have been in very cold weather on snow. Two of them are better on snow than bare ground. On tough days a hound has to do what it must to get the job done. If it cold trails a bit but produces game when other good dogs can't then that's welcome but if it cold trails while others are running a rabbit, then he wants to go back in the truck. The standard describes the ideal, but does not say anywhere that a hound must run perfect on every condition. The hound that most closely meets the standard day in and day out will also produce the most game. But there ARE days when there is no scent and no dog will be able to approach the standard, so you go with whatever can get the job done no matter how ugly, or you go home. If you shoot a lot of game off your dogs, they must be doing SOMETHING right and may only have a couple of minor flaws. They still come closer to the standard in many ways than other dogs who fail to produce game. So, you guys who got your feelings hurt because your dog has been accused of having a flaw- guess what? They ALL do- mine as well as yours, as well as every hound who ever drew a breath of air. Don't get your hackles up. They key is to recognize weaknesses and do what you can to improve with each generation. Anyone who has perfect hounds who never make mistakes and run every time out must spend most of their lives in the kennel. They are flesh and blood, not machines.