COLDTRAILIN
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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blackdirt beagles
everybody has their opinion on this and thats great. but some of you guys say that coldtrailing is an out and out fault and any use of mouth before the rabbit is up is also a fault. let me ask you this then, where is that written in stone? what "standard" are you going by? i got my own standards (opinions) that i go by, but i dont say the "only" correct way is this or that my dog does this, so if yours dont, then it is a faulty hound. every dog can be improved upon, but i want to know where this almighty standard is written that some of you guys refer to.
Any hound who cold trails and then produces four out of five times on those cold trails is babbling 20% of the time at the least. He is tongueing on a line that he cannot progress on at least once out of every five times. Any hunter would not wish to waste that much time in the field; it is also a fault as is written in the proceedure for judgeing under the AKC proceedure. It is a fault and while we will put up with faults in our hounds never does a fault suddenly become desireable. A fault is a fault and always will be a fault. Now there may be other hounds who are faultyer still that would not compare favorably but that does not change the fact that the fault remains a fault.
How long does one put up with the babbling when the rabbit is not produced? That is all time spent babbling when he could be looking for a viable line. The other four of the five times he has his rabbit up in a few minutes. Of those how many are actually cold trails and how many are faint scent left by a freshly disturbed rabbit?
What possible commands should be issued to a hound who is searching? other then calling him over to put him on the line of a seen rabbit there is are no commands to be issued to a hound who is already working. All that is required is the hound stays within distance of the handlers voice at a conversationl tone; exactly where in that circle of distance is up to the hounds. They are the experts at finding their game. If we are walking along and PULLING the hounds with us then the hounds do not have time to search an area properly and so we could not expect them to find game as they would when left to their own devices.
There is no such thing as a cold trailer who produces 100% of the cold trails he opens on. Therefor every cold trailer is opening on a line that he cannot progress . IN fact produceing 4 out of every 5 cold trails is an excellent record but still leaves the hound babbling on 20% of the lines he tries to run. Beaglers would be much better off useing hounds who don't waste any time on lines that they cannot progress on and yet are also endowed with the gifts neccissary for accounting for thier game under all conditions. There should be no doubt that there are hounds who can be out performed by some cold trailers under poor scenting conditions. In such cases that hound is faultier still then the cold trailer.
How long does one put up with the babbling when the rabbit is not produced? That is all time spent babbling when he could be looking for a viable line. The other four of the five times he has his rabbit up in a few minutes. Of those how many are actually cold trails and how many are faint scent left by a freshly disturbed rabbit?
What possible commands should be issued to a hound who is searching? other then calling him over to put him on the line of a seen rabbit there is are no commands to be issued to a hound who is already working. All that is required is the hound stays within distance of the handlers voice at a conversationl tone; exactly where in that circle of distance is up to the hounds. They are the experts at finding their game. If we are walking along and PULLING the hounds with us then the hounds do not have time to search an area properly and so we could not expect them to find game as they would when left to their own devices.
There is no such thing as a cold trailer who produces 100% of the cold trails he opens on. Therefor every cold trailer is opening on a line that he cannot progress . IN fact produceing 4 out of every 5 cold trails is an excellent record but still leaves the hound babbling on 20% of the lines he tries to run. Beaglers would be much better off useing hounds who don't waste any time on lines that they cannot progress on and yet are also endowed with the gifts neccissary for accounting for thier game under all conditions. There should be no doubt that there are hounds who can be out performed by some cold trailers under poor scenting conditions. In such cases that hound is faultier still then the cold trailer.
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blackdirt beagles
joe- do all your dogs circle and produce 100% of the time on a hot run? i'll bet a large sum of money that they dont. none can do it 100% of the time. guess they are faulty the rest of the time too then. you better get rid of those faulty dogs and start over i would say. because as you stated: a fault is a fault. if when a dog tongues a line(barks) and doesnt produce, you call it babbling, so what happens if you kick up the rabbit and hammer it for 50 yards, and the dogs go no farther? a complete loss. they didnt produce in my opinion, so would you say they just babbled their way into a check? or how would you excuse that?
"faint scent left by a freshly disturbed rabbit"
. that kills me. why not twist words into your favor lol. this is why we have "gray areas", because people twist words to help them out.
why is akc's standard the gospel? i never got to vote on it. i bet no one else on this board did either. akc is the standard if your running in an akc format, otherwise its just words on paper. maybe i like arha or ukc standards better. then what? let me guess...im wrong and your right. . or what if im just a dumb gunhunter in the field. who cares what akc thinks then. my standard then would be how full the game bag is.
what i wanted to do and joe helped me out perfectly is show that your standards arent mine and akc's are arha's and ukc's arent a gunhunters etc etc.. there is NO ALMIGHTY STANDARD. no dog is perfect. all dogs have some sorts of faults and its up to the owner to determine them and see if they can live with them. i bet you could come up with 6 sets of written standards that are all different for trials and dont forget the gunhunters.
sorry to get off topic here a bit, but i dont think cold trailing is a fault. if someone does, thats fine, but nobodies right or wrong. i dont see how producing a rabbit on the tough days can be called a fault, but theres a lot of stuff in the "standard" of beagling i dont agree with either.
"faint scent left by a freshly disturbed rabbit"
. that kills me. why not twist words into your favor lol. this is why we have "gray areas", because people twist words to help them out. why is akc's standard the gospel? i never got to vote on it. i bet no one else on this board did either. akc is the standard if your running in an akc format, otherwise its just words on paper. maybe i like arha or ukc standards better. then what? let me guess...im wrong and your right.
. or what if im just a dumb gunhunter in the field. who cares what akc thinks then. my standard then would be how full the game bag is. what i wanted to do and joe helped me out perfectly is show that your standards arent mine and akc's are arha's and ukc's arent a gunhunters etc etc.. there is NO ALMIGHTY STANDARD. no dog is perfect. all dogs have some sorts of faults and its up to the owner to determine them and see if they can live with them. i bet you could come up with 6 sets of written standards that are all different for trials and dont forget the gunhunters.
sorry to get off topic here a bit, but i dont think cold trailing is a fault. if someone does, thats fine, but nobodies right or wrong. i dont see how producing a rabbit on the tough days can be called a fault, but theres a lot of stuff in the "standard" of beagling i dont agree with either.
cold trailin
I personally don't care for cold trailing, but I own one dog that cold trails and she happens to be my best jump dog. With that being said I will comment on Joe's last post. You commented that dogs cold trailing on a track that they couldn't produce on were wasting time. I don't think anymore time is wasted by this cold trailer than by the dog that is working it silently. If you ever noticed a cold trailer and a non coldtrailer working a line together the only difference is that the cold trailer is opening. Both dogs have the happy tail and are probably working it at the same pace, so if neither of them jumped they still spent(wasted) the same amount of time working the line. If you go with your theory, which I agree with, that the hot nosed dog smelled the track, but just didn't open because it wasn't hot enough then he would naturally work it just like the cold nosed dog that happened to bark on it. I personally don't care much for dogs that have to trail a rabbit all the way up to jump it, and that is because where I'm from the best jump dogs are the ones that just tear the thick stuff up, or the ones that have superior noses that will circle it and only enter it if they smell where a rabbit has been. In Chris's neck of the woods this type of dog probably wouldn't do as well because of the rough scenting conditions and low game populations. Just my two scents.
Big Dog
Big Dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
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bob huffman
@
I have to agree with Blackdirt beagles. This makes lots of sense. I notice that folks that have experience with larger hounds that chase fur bearers or big game, tend to like a complete hound that is a good jump dog and can work a bad feeder track or cold track etc. I include myself in that group. If a dog can work a cold or bad track, I don't think it matters too much if he is silent or barks every now and then. I think both hounds could and do have the same ability. One barks a little and the other one don't. At times I like it when they bark because I can figure what they are doing. At other times it would be good to track silent to get up on the game. I have too many other traits to worry about and this problem is down on my list of breeding as long as it don't lead to babblers or track jackers. yes its a balance just like all the other traits. When you go lame like I am, you will appreciate a hound that tells you what he is doing and where he is a little more, but again, as long as they can run a rabbit in the coditions I hunt in, I will feed them. If you keep breeding for hunt, handling ( includes honest packwork) and tracking ability, the rest will take care of itself without having to anylize it.
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blackdirt beagles
Blackdirt beagles: Yep they do produce their rabbit 100 % of the time on a hot run. 
However they do not account for their rabbit 100% of the time. Too much of that and I assure you I would get rid of them. No they didn't babble their way into a check they have encountered a loss and too much of that and there is some fault that is the cause of it and the hound should be culled.
Surely at some time you have seen a rabbit produced that has only left a faint trail for the hounds to follow until they can warm their rabbit up and pursue him. That's not twisting words it's a fact that happens when running hounds.
The AKC proceedure for judgeing was written by one of the greatest houndsmen in beagleing history. His knowledge of hound actions was unsurpassed in all of beagledom; why wouldn't we listen to him?
Big Dog: Do you really beleive that a cold trailer and a hound who does not cold trail spend the same amount of time on a cold trail? The difference is the hound who does not cold trail won't waste his time on the cold trail. yes he will sometimes flag and work it a bit but once he's satisfied it's a cold trail he does not try to unravel it. the cold trailer sticks with the cold trail. What makes you think Chris's situation is any different then mine? I'm from upstate NY.
However they do not account for their rabbit 100% of the time. Too much of that and I assure you I would get rid of them. No they didn't babble their way into a check they have encountered a loss and too much of that and there is some fault that is the cause of it and the hound should be culled.Surely at some time you have seen a rabbit produced that has only left a faint trail for the hounds to follow until they can warm their rabbit up and pursue him. That's not twisting words it's a fact that happens when running hounds.
The AKC proceedure for judgeing was written by one of the greatest houndsmen in beagleing history. His knowledge of hound actions was unsurpassed in all of beagledom; why wouldn't we listen to him?
Big Dog: Do you really beleive that a cold trailer and a hound who does not cold trail spend the same amount of time on a cold trail? The difference is the hound who does not cold trail won't waste his time on the cold trail. yes he will sometimes flag and work it a bit but once he's satisfied it's a cold trail he does not try to unravel it. the cold trailer sticks with the cold trail. What makes you think Chris's situation is any different then mine? I'm from upstate NY.
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blackdirt beagles
wow 100% of the time and here we all thought no dog could do anything 100% of the time. gee, awesome dogs, maybe Branko, Bruner, Dale Prunty, Jim Byram and all the other big breeders should talk to you about setting up a class so you can show them what they (and the rest of us) are doing wrong.
oh wait a minute...i see you said hot run. ok never mind. hot nosed dogs are worthless to me. i hunt in all conditions, not just when your gonna get hot rabbits up. please disregard the first statement above.
why cant you have a loss on a cold trail? all rabbits dont make a straight line to where they bed down. maybe the rabbit made a sharp turn and jumped 3 feet over a log on his way home and when the dogs got to it, they didnt make the turn. they were still on a trail that they could move and they encountered a loss just like your dogs on the hot rabbit. if they were in a trial situation(arha Lp lets say), one dog would already have strike points and when the dogs stopped barking for the allotted time, they would then be in a check situation, and the dog that finds where the rabbit turned would be awarded check points. all that before jump points would even be rewarded. now joe, tell me where anything i just stated is wrong according to the ARHA rules (their standard). not your standrd maybe, but it still is a legitimate formats standard.
the akc standard may well have been written by a great beagle man, but ya know what? arha, ukc, pkc, etc...didnt have morons writing theirs. arha was written by a group of distinguished beaglers who were looking for something different than what akc offered. didnt akc give us brace beagles
? i think we all agree about them dont we? but hey, they fit akc standard, so i guess thats all that matters, right joe?
we can argue for a month and just because dogs that can cold trail dont fit your standard, dont mean nothing. same for me. do you like a bawl or chop mouth? same kinda arguement. 100 reasons for each side, but who cares. heck joe, i even had some dogs out of the lines you keep. had a couple that were gay on top and little ireland/bedlam on the bottom. all the big names in the pedigree, but they couldnt cut it here. oddly enough they were great jump dogs(hot rabbits), but they sure couldnt track a rabbit out of a linen closet if they were tied to his tail
. they worked out great for someone who just wanted to jump shoot rabbits, but im lookin for a more complete dog myself.
oh wait a minute...i see you said hot run. ok never mind. hot nosed dogs are worthless to me. i hunt in all conditions, not just when your gonna get hot rabbits up. please disregard the first statement above.
why cant you have a loss on a cold trail? all rabbits dont make a straight line to where they bed down. maybe the rabbit made a sharp turn and jumped 3 feet over a log on his way home and when the dogs got to it, they didnt make the turn. they were still on a trail that they could move and they encountered a loss just like your dogs on the hot rabbit. if they were in a trial situation(arha Lp lets say), one dog would already have strike points and when the dogs stopped barking for the allotted time, they would then be in a check situation, and the dog that finds where the rabbit turned would be awarded check points. all that before jump points would even be rewarded. now joe, tell me where anything i just stated is wrong according to the ARHA rules (their standard). not your standrd maybe, but it still is a legitimate formats standard.
the akc standard may well have been written by a great beagle man, but ya know what? arha, ukc, pkc, etc...didnt have morons writing theirs. arha was written by a group of distinguished beaglers who were looking for something different than what akc offered. didnt akc give us brace beagles
? i think we all agree about them dont we? but hey, they fit akc standard, so i guess thats all that matters, right joe?we can argue for a month and just because dogs that can cold trail dont fit your standard, dont mean nothing. same for me. do you like a bawl or chop mouth? same kinda arguement. 100 reasons for each side, but who cares. heck joe, i even had some dogs out of the lines you keep. had a couple that were gay on top and little ireland/bedlam on the bottom. all the big names in the pedigree, but they couldnt cut it here. oddly enough they were great jump dogs(hot rabbits), but they sure couldnt track a rabbit out of a linen closet if they were tied to his tail
. they worked out great for someone who just wanted to jump shoot rabbits, but im lookin for a more complete dog myself.-
Boxer
col trailing
Hi there in my opinion once a cold trailer always a cold trailer .I would personally make the dog cold, just my two cents worth.Take care
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blackdirt beagles
on the board who never seem to use a real name.black dirt beagles: How can the hounds have a hot chase if the rabbit has not been produced?????? Don't your cold trailers ever warm their rabbit up and have a hot chase???? At that time have they produced their rabbit???? If the hounds are in the midst of a hot chase and have not yet produced a rabbit then there is something else vary wrong. A hot line is something again different from what I understand you call a hot nosed hound.
Well now imagine a hound being rewarded with all those points BEFORE the rabbit is even produced. Old bunny need not move at all and yet the hounds are rewarded with all those points. When AHRA LP was started it was intended to take the judgemnet out of judgeing. They saw that the AKC proceedure was being disregarded and sought to make a format where they could over ride such things with the rules. However, from the start they had left some vary important hound actions out of their rules.
The brace hounds DO NOT conform to the AKC proceedure for judgeing. They are the resut of disregarding the proceedure.
You are confuseig hounds that can cold trail with hounds that do cold trail. The act of cold trailing is not an indication of a superior nose; it is an inability to age the line or an indifference for the age of the line.
Well now imagine a hound being rewarded with all those points BEFORE the rabbit is even produced. Old bunny need not move at all and yet the hounds are rewarded with all those points. When AHRA LP was started it was intended to take the judgemnet out of judgeing. They saw that the AKC proceedure was being disregarded and sought to make a format where they could over ride such things with the rules. However, from the start they had left some vary important hound actions out of their rules.
The brace hounds DO NOT conform to the AKC proceedure for judgeing. They are the resut of disregarding the proceedure.
You are confuseig hounds that can cold trail with hounds that do cold trail. The act of cold trailing is not an indication of a superior nose; it is an inability to age the line or an indifference for the age of the line.
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Steve C.
Nowhere in any post did anyone suggest you get rid of your hounds. A couple of you are determined to polarize everyone into two camps- those that LIKE cold trailing and those that don't. As I've said on several occasions, the standard is there for us to shoot for, and the standard was established scores of years ago by the houndsmen who developed the bloodlines we have to work with today. Few dogs will meet the standard and all will have some measure of shortcomings. Many are content to hunt with hounds that produce game for them a majority of the time, by whatever means necessary. There is nothing wrong with that. Others are determined to produce the best specimens possible, as near flawless as can be hoped for; but few will achieve it. I find it strange that some feel that those who look for the very best hound possible are not hunters, or their hounds are suitable only for field trials. The very toughest to please people I know are avid rabbit hunters who spend dozens of days a year running hounds. They don't settle for many faults in their hounds. No one is more critical of their own hounds than I am. That doesn't mean I cull out every dog that doesn't meet expectations, I just am aware of his faults and weaknesses. I can shoot plenty of hare off any dog in my kennel, faulty or not, but it is those few special hounds who DO meet the standard that will live forever in my memory and accounted for more game than all the rest. It's taken a lot of years, hundreds of dogs and thousands of hare to make me realize why some dogs are better than others and that those who most closely met the standard are the ones that also gave the best days afield, and accounted for the fewest lost rabbits and poor days. There have only been 5 or 6 such hounds I've had the pleasure of owning over the last 30+ years, not many out of a couple hundred hounds, but they DO exist and having hunted with such dogs make it hard to settle for less.