COLDTRAILIN

[beaglebill]

Guest, was that dog out in the open barking or was he in briar patches, honey suckle.? I would guess he was out in the open paths where the game had played the previous night. I rarely see one open in the heavy stuff it is usually out in the open on a good frosty morn. The dog i started this thread about has not repeated his barking. It appears plenty of hunting has changed him as someone stated may happen or it had something to do with frost on the ground that particular morning.

[backyard beagler]

I set my dogs out the other morning, me and my dad and of course I wanted them to do good, we had a big frost that looked like snow, they started hunting a thicket and didn't jump nothing 1 dog got out in a field and started acting real excited and the others all joined in with her wasen't long before they started cold trailing and let me tell you I hate it, anyhow they run it in spurts about 40 to 50 yards at a time and almost circled all the way around a big bottom I was on the verge of shocking them when lo and behold they jump a rabbit out of grass that was ankle high, they was thickets all over the place but he was in a open field now I think they could have jumped that rabbit without barking before it was up but they thought it was hot enough and I guess I can overlook it as long as they don't make it a habit but after they jump 1 and get some hot scent in their nose I see no reason to bark before it's up I think that is were the brains come in.

[Joe West]

Chris: Last time we had a big discussion on this board about cold trailing I suspected there was a difference in the experiance of the beaglers involved in the discussion. That is, some have seen hounds with superior noses that did not cold trail and some have seen hounds with superior noses that tended to cold trail. Personally I hate cold trailing and would cull in a heartbeat for it, but not at the expense of accomplishment. If the best hound I owned tended to cold trail just a little occassionally I'd over look it. But, from my experiance with the few cold trailers I've seen if they did it too often there is no way they could stay here. Years ago I used to run with a guy who had a hound who tended to cold trail. Big nose and the hound seemed to show up my at first. But over time and especialy when conditions were poor my old hound seemed to just ignore the other and got most of the starts on a hot trail. It wasn't that my old hound never worked a cold trail it was just that he worked them silently. There is nothing better then hearing a hound open and knowing beyond any doubt that there is a rabbit up.

Backtracking: When a hound hits a trail at a 90 degree angle I often wondered how they know what direction a rabbit is going. Somehow they do though and that is part of a beagles magic. When conditions are right any hound might have to check a little in this direction or that to determine the direction of their game. IN some rare instances they might even get fooled and start off in the wrong direction and then quickly find their mistake and turn around. This is to be expected on rare occassions but if we start seeing a trend then the hound is lacking in some way.

You will see a hound with a superior nose who uses his voice correctly. I see more of them then the other. Why our experiances are so different I don't know.

[Steve C.]

This is the dilemma all of us face who are looking to breed for superior nose. You may get the nose but there can be a lot of excess baggage that comes with it (cold trailing, backtracking). And having done your homework on breeding to a stud doesn't always help either. As an example, my best hound ever had a great nose and used his mouth properly 95% of the time. On old, crusty snow he could push a hare hard with his head in the air, not struggling to extract scent from footprints. I also owned two of his sisters. One had average nose and perfectly clean mouth, the other had incredible nose but you couldn't always trust her when she opened. On some really tough days when no one it seemed could lift scent, she'd produce rabbits for you. But you had to endure lengthy cold trailing and as conditions improved, she'd bark on every track in the woods. She'd tongue them both directions too. After one gunning season she found a new home. When breeding to this male stud, I got a variety of traits, both desirable and undesirable. That's why we need to set our standards high and cull as necessary. There was another stud I considered breeding to who was well known as an incredible snow hound, and the reputation was well deserved. But in seeing his offspring run, I found a majority of them would backtrack with a vengeance. A buddy of mine has a hound that I would rate as highly as any I've ever seen on snow. On bare ground, I don't know if there's another hound alive can keep up with her, but she gets very rough and loose with her mouth. Never cold trailing or taking a back line, she just doesn't ever seem to stop tonguing. I've often wondered if her nose is so good that she never is able to outrun it. On snow she is nearly perfect, dominating every pack she runs in. She never was trialed much, and her record has been mixed. She has been picked up half the time but has won or finished second the rest of the times. But she's guaranteed to produce game every time out once snow flies. She was only bred once and that was this past summer so it's too soon to tell what she may produce. When we breed for extreme nose we get some good ones but many of them seem to have their quirks. My buddy seldom trials but does a lot of hunting once the snow flies, so they are a perfect match. The point is that none of our hounds are going to be perfect but a good hound is a good hound regardless of its shortcomings. We all have different levels of tolerance for unwanted traits, but the hound that we would cull for relatively minor fault may still be the best hound many people would ever want to own.

[Chris]

Really good post, Steve.

But she's guaranteed to produce game every time out once snow flies. She was only bred once and that was this past summer so it's too soon to tell what she may produce.

Do you happen to know her breeding? Is she a fluke or does that blood tend to produce similar type dogs. I'm really curious to know what she's out of.

[Steve C.]

Chris, to the best of my recollection the sire was off FTC Greenbrier's Mack Truck or FTC Greenbrier Hunter, both off FTC Getemout Jim Beau. The dam was from Mike Blair's BirchHaven kennels and I think went back to IFC Birch Haven Bruiser, so there's a lot of nose there. Nathan Sullivan of Nova Scotia was the breeder. He's a dedicated trial judge and hardcore trialer, but hunts more days out of the year than most of us, so nose is important to him. Another absolutely great snow hound was IFC Sullivan's Lucky Lucy and IFC Sullivan's Sherlock Holmes too was owned by Nathan. He's one trialer who breeds for nose even though it doesn't always get noticed in the trials. He's been a good source for me to find top snow hound bloodlines to use in my breeding program.

[FullCry]

Howdy folks, I have a small pack of six trained beagle rabbit dogs.I have two males and a female that are all 8.5 yrs. old,a male thats 5.5,a female that's 4,and another male that's 3.I was given the oldest dogs as six weeks old pups and raised the others from them.Someone in this post said that here in the south conditons were never bad enough to need a big nosed dog like up north in the snow........but we have dry conditions down here to deal with as well as frost and the dead and dying plants and falling leaves in the fall.Any way I am just a rabbit hunter with grade dawgs that coonhunted for years and got into beagles.My dogs are like some y'all describe as coldtrailers I guess but me and my buddys don't really use that term when we hunt.We can tell by the dogs voices if they are trailing and when they jump.I don't really want a dog that doesn't speak before he jumps..........here it's so thick when they are trailing the rabbit this is how we keep up with them.When they jump the rabbit we definatly know they did by the frenzy of barking and some of our dogs don't bark as much on the trail.We look at this as team work.......or a variety of mouths in pitch as well as frequency and how often the mouth is used.I like all of my dogs or they wouldn't still be here for I have given a many a way.I myself don't won't a pack of field trial type dogs that only bark when the rabbit jumps because they might be a hundred yards away in the thick or swamp before they jump and it would be harder to mark the spot they jumped for this would be the begining point where we would stand to try and shoot the rabbit.Here rabbits are really scarce where we are hunting this year and just about every jump we get is from a trail.We have hunted two hours and not gotten a rabbit up then the dogs start trailing and in five or ten minutes jump the rabbit and then we have a heck of a swamp rabbit race.When my dogs trail they are not walking and barking they are jogging and or running half speed and it sounds cool to hear them go from their trailing barks to all of a sudden a dang roar and fullcry when they jump ol brer rabbit.A dog here that can trail a rabbit up in bad conditons and jump him consistently is worthy of a place in my pack.I realize we all have different likes and dislikes in styles of dogs and I dislike a closed mouth trailer as much as some of y'all despise a trailer.Here a tight mouth dog will be trailing a rabbit and jump a hundred yds out from the other dogs and it will take the rest of the pack a long time to get to the jumped dog especially if the rabbit ran away from the rest of the pack.Anyway to each his own I just happen to be one in defense of the trailers............NOT COLD trailing babblilng idiots but a dog that can trail a rabbit or any other game up while giving tongue with respect to the degree of age of the trail and jump the game.Thanks all.......................FullCry

[laal]

I run as far south as you can go and still be in Alabama. I will stay with my first post, if a dog opens before the rabbit is jumped, that is a fault.

I have hunted with folks that had cold trailers, one hunt is all, I don't run my dogs with cold trailers.

If you think a dog that opens on a cold trail has a big nose you might be right? I know a dog that opens on a cold trail is faulty. If you can't run it don't open. I have 2 big nose dogs that will not open on a cold trail, but they have the scent.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

A hound that opens a cold track is faulty?
I respeactfully disagree with that.

I don't want them running a cold track baying every breath.

I would perfer a dog to cold track silent and I can't stand a dog that constantly is cold tracking.

But to say a dog is faulty if he opens before the rabbit is jumped just doesn't fit up here.

It can be 10 degrees below sometimes when we hunt. If you don't have a dog that can do a little cold trailing your not gonna jump to many rabbits.

[Joe West]

Rabbits live in a pretty small home territory. When they are out feeding they don't go in a straight line but go this way and that crossing and recrossing their trail as they feed. A buck rabbit will travel quite a ways in search of a doe in breeding season but not in winter. Rabbit aren't roamers but can lay down quite a bit of track in a small area from their night feeding. A rabbit can lay a couple hundred yards of track in a twenty square yard area and be sitting tight right close. If the hounds cold trail they have to run all of that track to find their rabbit when in fact he's sitting waiting to be ran quite close by. I've been a bit surprized in the descriptions of the cold trailing that none have said anything about hounds crossing and recrossing the trail that the rabbit surely laid while feeding. Rabbits don't make a nice circle when not being ran they generally don't go straight line unless they are out of territory for some reason such as breeding and they stick to feed and cover, wandering seemingly aimlessly this way and that. Haven't seen those descriptions in cold trailing here; why?

[snowshoehareguide]

A buddy of mine has a hound that I would rate as highly as any I've ever seen on snow. On bare ground, I don't know if there's another hound alive can keep up with her, but she gets very rough and loose with her mouth. Never cold trailing or taking a back line, she just doesn't ever seem to stop tonguing. I've often wondered if her nose is so good that she never is able to outrun it. On snow she is nearly perfect, dominating every pack she runs in. She never was trialed much, and her record has been mixed. She has been picked up half the time but has won or finished second the rest of the times. But she's guaranteed to produce game every time out once snow flies. She was only bred once and that was this past summer

steve we can argue this back and forth for years. . i need a dog that runs every day. the ones that dont like a mouthy dog never will.... i will put up with a lot to get that big nose.. that big nose is the most important thing to me. . . the dog you described above sounds perfect to me.. if your buddy breeds again id like a pup from this dog..how bout sending me his phone # ..id appreciate any ideas you have as where i can get a pup from dogs with big nose. you said dog above doesnt coldtrail or backtrack. ive had beagles 30 years. seen one dog that had the nose i needed like that.. ive had some others that had the nose but did cold trail and back track occasionaly. but if they have that big nose i can put up with a lot of coldtrailing. from what ive seen the backtracking gets better and the coldtrailing gets worse. pete

[S.R.Patch]

Very interesting point, Joe ...

[Little Dog]

Joe, you bring up an interesting point of a rabbits wanderings. Like untieing a knot with your nose -- nearly impossible.

[Chris]

Rabbits don't make a nice circle when not being ran they generally don't go straight line unless they are out of territory for some reason such as breeding and they stick to feed and cover, wandering seemingly aimlessly this way and that. Haven't seen those descriptions in cold trailing here; why?

You haven't heard it from me because that's not the way it happens up here. I've repeatedly said that there's a big difference between a babbling idiot and a cold trailer.

I use the term babbler to describe a dog who dubs around and barks without producing anything. I use the term cold-trailing to describe a dog that can smell, bark on and run a track that other dogs can't (for whatever reason; usually because the dog's got the nose). For instance: let's say it's 5 degrees out and you're on a week old crust -- very poor scenting. You see a hare take off at 7:35. You call the dogs over to the general area. They arrive at 7:36. You watch them. One of them will get scent enough to bark (the one who has a really big nose and tends to be a bit mouthy, perhaps). The other dogs run around like there hasn't been a rabbit around within miles. That one dog might go 50, 100, 200 or 300 yards alone picking the track and barking. Other dogs will occasionally check him out, but don't chime in. When the hare starts to give off a bit more scent (for whatever reason) and the track gets hotter, one of the other dogs will chime in, then another, until they're all bumping and grinding. That's just one example.

I've seen it time and time again. Some days it's so bad that the other dog(s) don't ever run more that 10 yards at a time, because there's just not enough scent, and guess what, if you don't have a cold-nosed dog that day you're not going to run any rabbits more that 10 yards at a time. It's the ability to take a track that other pretty good dogs can't smell and turn it into a run that makes a cold-nosed dog. That's my idea of a dog, and the one common denominator that I've seen with these type dogs is that they don't exhibit perfect mouth. Cull for imperfect mouth and we'll get hotter and hotter nosed dogs that aren't suitable for winter gunning.

I wish everyone could separate in their mind the babbling from the cold-nose, because they're not synonymous -- one consistently produces and shows you the rabbit and the other is a cull, and no, cold-nosed dogs, by-and-large, don't have perfect mouths, but that's because they've got the nose. Run less field trials in May and more in January and maybe a few more gundogs will start to finish, and we can take all the excuses of why our dogs can't run today and flush them.

[S.R.Patch]

I wish everyone could understand that a hound "can and should" work a cold scent while keeping it's mouth shut. The problem comes from interfereing with the hunt of the other hounds, who may be working closer to the start or jump.
If you hunt only one hound, he can sing the tale of a week old trail and it will matter not, but when others hounds are working as a group, they should not advertise it, untill it's a sure thing ...Patch