Why are pups so hard to raise anymore....

[dave404]

I remeber growing up at home we kept squirrel dogs, hounds, etc.. and dad never had to worm , give shots, etc.. as we do today.
I posted on upcoming litters my Branko, she whelped a few days early,had 10 and only got 3 left. They were average size and just started dying shortly after birth and several made it until the next day.
The mother is in great health, wormed, exercised, etc... This was her 2nd litter and the 1st she had 11 and raised 2. Same symptoms with both litters,so she wont be bred again.
Also those that have inquired about these, i wont have any for sale.

I had a bluetick back in the winter had 9, raised all 9 and it was pretty cold also.
Lets hear your results and opinions on WHY are pups so hard to keep alive ???
Something wrong before birth ? Too close linebreeding(i read the purer the blood the less resistance to diseases)???

[jfields]

I had two sets of pups this summer , One female had 6 and the other had 7.They were born 4 days apart. One out of each litter died. People said I would never raise them because I had an outbreak of Parvo about a month before they were born. But the mothers did a good job and I did everything I could. Raised them above ground , started a parvo shot at 4 weeks and 3 more regular shots every 2 weeks , and kept up on worming. But getting back to your point Im sure if I did nothing most or all would have most likely died. I can remember when I was a kid stray dogs crawling up under the house or old building and having pups and all of them living without any help from us. I know they lived because I kept a couple of them myself. But to answwer your question I dont know. I would also like an explaination.

[yellowdog]

had nine two days ago and got 2 left ...the bitch is healthy as a horse her milk is good her bag aint hot...pups all looked healthy when born she cleaned them up good...just not workin out if somebody has the magic cure i would sure like to hear it...

[DRamey]

Dave, same thing here. My explanation is that we fed 95% table scraps when I was growing up and now its 99% dry feed. Hmmm.......

[Windkist]

The most likely cause of death for new puppies is dehydration and cold. Once they become chilled they don't have the energy to nurse and they dehydrate and die. With those BIG litters of 9 and 10 you should probably have the bitch inside your home where its warm and monitor the puppies for at least the first 5 days. I had a litter of 9 once and we rotated them on and off. The ones not nursing would be in a warming box. Or we'd suppliment with a bottle for a few days until they all got going good. Its hard for a bitch with a large litter to keep them all warm if she is outside and expending all her own energy making milk. We all know of mutts etc who raised 10 puppies under the porch but, when I have a litter I just don't take chances as I want them all to survive. Who knows if the next great one is in that bunch ;-)

Leah

[dave404]

Leah, i agree to a point. She had them a couple days ago and it was really warm. I also put a 100 watt bulb on them, stayed with her until all was born and dried off. got her in the house with the remaining 3 now.

Also have had them to die the same way when temps are 80's and 90's and a heat source isnt needed.

ok reason i agree to a point is last winter the bluetick i mentioned had 9 in the same whelping box without heat and temp was in the low teens. i turned the heat on them next day.
all 9 lived.

Seems to me something is wrong with the pups at birth or before born, although all seemed healthy. i think also a lot of dogs arent good mothers.

A buddy had several litters with the same losses.
I know its very disgusting and heartbreaking.

[TomMN]

Those dogs from years ago were mostly born in a hole in the dirt or someplace and they survived or not depending on how strong they were and how good a mother the female was. They did not get any vetrinary care or heating pads. Natural selection ensured only the strong survived to produce the next generation.

Now days there are some dogs that can't even be bred and raise a litter of pups without a lot of human intervention. I know how hard it is to see a female loose pups and not try to help, but I'm not so sure helping the weaker ones survive is a good thing. Same goes for the ones, male and female, that have a hard time breeding. If you can't just throw them together and let them get the job done without any help then maybe they shouldn't be getting bred? That next champion that you saved may also be the one that carries the traits that make it hard to keep pups alive.

I am as guilty as anyone at helping things along, it's hard not to. Mother nature doesn't have any problems culling the ones that deserve it.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

My Branko bitch had 9 and raised 8 healthy pups. This was when she was around 15 months old. These pups were line bred with the sire and dam having the same father.
Too many variables to determine why you lost so many pups.

[WILL LEFEVERS]

My female had a litter of 7 about 3 weeks ago and they are doing fine. I have had problems in years past with some litters, so I moved my female in my garage about a week before she had them so I could keep a close eye on them, alot of cleaning up each day after work but I wanted to do everything I could to try and keep them alive, so far so good, but you never know.

[NorWester]

I had two sets of pups this summer , One female had 6 and the other had 7.They were born 4 days apart. One out of each litter died. People said I would never raise them because I had an outbreak of Parvo about a month before they were born. But the mothers did a good job and I did everything I could. Raised them above ground , started a parvo shot at 4 weeks and 3 more regular shots every 2 weeks , and kept up on worming. But getting back to your point Im sure if I did nothing most or all would have most likely died. I can remember when I was a kid stray dogs crawling up under the house or old building and having pups and all of them living without any help from us. I know they lived because I kept a couple of them myself. But to answwer your question I dont know. I would also like an explaination.

That outbreak of Parvo a month before those pups were born probably did more to protect them than the shots you started at week 4. I also think TomMN is on to something, we do the same thing with dogs at this point that we've been trying to do with humans forever and a day. Save everyone. In the end it weakens the bloodline and from there the species. When I was a kid it was very rare to see another kid with allergies or asthma or immune disorders (or so it appeared) These days your kid can't bring a peanut butter sandwich to school, something like one in 150 kids is diagnosed with autism, and darn near everyone has allergies of some kind. Antibiotics don't work anymore and we're no closer to curing cancer than we were when the first case in history was diagnosed. Yet we supposedly live longer although I have a sneaky suspicion that all we've really done is learned enough to prolong the suffering at the end of life, not add a couple more years to the healthy strong middle half. Like feeding deer in a tough winter.......its tough not to help when the solution looks so easy. Unfortunately there always seems to be a price to pay somewhere down the line.

[nutbush]

I remember several years ago my Grandfather had an old dog that had a little beagle and something else mixed in. He would run a rabbit pretty good, but was stubborn as a mule. My Grandfather kept him in the backyard, and ate nothing but scraps. This dog would make my Grandfather soo mad sometimes that he would go out and kick the living #$%^ out of him and the dog would go into convulsions. After a minute or 2 he would come bac to his senses and be normal again. Saying all this to say that that dog never had any dog food or shots. Heck,,,he ate soo many fish and chicken bones that my Grandfather just knew he would die. But we always made a joke that that old dog would probably outlive my Grandfather.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I remember several years ago my Grandfather had an old dog that had a little beagle and something else mixed in. He would run a rabbit pretty good, but was stubborn as a mule. My Grandfather kept him in the backyard, and ate nothing but scraps. This dog would make my Grandfather soo mad sometimes that he would go out and kick the living #$%^ out of him and the dog would go into convulsions. After a minute or 2 he would come bac to his senses and be normal again. Saying all this to say that that dog never had any dog food or shots. Heck,,,he ate soo many fish and chicken bones that my Grandfather just knew he would die. But we always made a joke that that old dog would probably outlive my Grandfather.

What a great way to treat a poor old dog, and some wonderful way to influence your grandkids behavior towards animals.

Back to the topic: Getting pups throught the first few days is the toughest. Mother Nature doesn't care who dies as long as enough live to continue the species. Those of us with GOOD homes waiting for their puppies while we are also waiting for our next "potential great one" (or in Leah's case "The next Great One" ) prefer to give that wicked old Mother Nature a fight for as many puppies as we can keep.
Bring 'em in the house, keep them warm and dry and well fed . Keep them where you can make sure mama isn't laying on one or keeping it stuck in one corner too long without nursing.
"Pink, twitchy, and quiet' Room temp 75-80 degrees with no drafts.....
Raised 11 here this summer...one Mother nature deemed unsuitable but I saved him and I cannot believe the gorgeous, robust puppy he has grown into with BONE. He was certainly worth every bottle feeding to me and to the people who LOVE him now.
Good Luck,

[S.R.Patch]

I agree with Tom...

Every once in a while, we need reminded of what is possible, what is needed and what should be allowed to go as it is...

A couple months ago, I watched a bitch free whelp a litter of 9(one died at birth), she cleaned and chewed the cords, nursed all by dividing into two groups on her own, she was given no extra before whelping, so the pups were not oversized fat little balls but, stringly little fighters that grasp for the teat with the desire to live. The box was a bare wood floor, no bedding or heat, she was very attentive and kept the pups grouped, cleaned and covered with her own body. I watched her many times ,if a pup was latched on and drug from the box when she came to the gate to greet me, she would turn around, mouth the pup, pick it up and carry it back into the box and deposit it into it's pile of brothers & sisters. The pups were up on their leggs early and about the box, many times they would fall out the box, but mom was always there to lend a lift when their cries meant the were ready to go back inside. When it came to weaning, the bitch would eat, then go into the box and throw it up for the pups to clean up. It wasn't long before they were all tumbling out of the box when I'd go out to feed her, too join in on the feast. The only problem I had was, she would not tolerate them eatting from the pan the same time she was. The amazing thing was, they found gaps in the fence and would come through the wire into the next pen and eat from their neighbors pan...
I'm ashamed to admit, all the somewhat neglect I given these pups in hopes the numbers would decrease, they've beaten me by their good mother's care and their own strength and will to live. If only all could be this good...

[Emery]

My thoughts on this is that it is in the genetics. My first female that I bred was from a litter of 11 pups. I bred her 3 different times, she had litters of 8, 7 and 8 pups. I only lost one pup from her and that was at 3 weeks old. That pup just never grew. It would eat like the rest, but never increased much in size. One morning I went out and she was dead. All three of these litters were outside and on the ground.

The only other female I had, I don't know the size of her litter, but she had 5 pups and one was still-born. This litter was in Dec in Michigan. The first pup was born outside in the seneca kennel and my male went crazy barking and that is when I knew I needed to go out and check on what was wrong. I took the momma and the pup inside to the basement and put them on a sleeping bag. She had the rest of her litter there. At a couple weeks old, I put my home made above kennel in the garage and put the pups and mom out there with a heat mat and a 40 watt light bulb in the box. It stayed toasty warm in there and I eventually took out the heat mat because it wasn't on or needed.

I guess I may be lucky, but I think that if you get a pup that you had to do some serious work to keep alive, then you might be getting litters from that dog that you need to serious work to save. But then again, what the heck do I know?

Emery

[dave404]

Folks, down to 2 now, lost another today right after watching it suck, i got her in the house too. I cant believe otherwise that pups that die like this has something wrong when born.
I used to raise hogs and read an article that purer the bloodline, the resistance to diseases and so forth went down. maybe why mutts and other mixed breeds seem to raise pups better.

S.R.Patch , i had an Akita a few yrs. ago and she had 10 her 1st litter.
she would nurse 5 at a time , raised all 10 of them.

Good answers from everyone, and a great board !!