A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Tim H wrote:Just out of curiosity, for those of you who want all these equal talent well rounded dogs, what is the purpose of having more than one dog, if they all are the same?
You claim that if one dog is faster than the rest then that dog must be worthless? One dog is able to pick up colder trails, it must be worthless? Another dog is more adaptable, it must be worthless?
I guess all your dogs could just be average at everything, and that makes them productive?
I don't mind someone having an opinion different from mine but to say that someone else's dogs must be worthless when you've never seen them run, to me seems ignorant and arrogant.
Run whatever packs you want but why do you have to run other people and their dogs down just to try to make your way look good?
More nose power. I havent ever seen even littermates that were exactly equal in all respects, similar but not equal. I could hunt with one dog, but prefer 2 or 3. Always have some spares in case of accidents , premature death.
Jumpmaster, I assume when people are talking about throwing a blanket over them they mean after the rabbit is up and the chase is on.
Another question I have, how many dogs are each of you calling a pack? I see people posting about 2 or 3 dogs as a pack, is that really what you consider a pack?
Not that this is the right answer or the only answer, but I consider a pack 5 dogs or more.
Now to clear up the mis-characterization of what an anchor dog is and how the pack works when using this method.
The anchor dog is a well rounded steady dog that may not excel in anything in particular but makes very few mistakes. The anchor dog is capable of keeping up with the faster dogs in the pack but if ran solo will be a bit slower. The anchor dog will help the faster dogs, when they're pups, learn to slow down to the strength of their nose. The anchor dog helps the slower pups learn to get moving when the track is up.
How the pack works with an anchor dog. While all the dogs in the pack should be well rounded, if you have spent much time behind hounds, you know that some dogs excel in certain areas. Simply put, just because a dog has longer legs than the rest of the pack doesn't mean they are deficient in some other area. Rather than culling such a dog you exploit the strengths by including them in your pack. The faster dog will have good line control or the pack will turn the track behind them and it won't take a smart dog long to learn to slowdown and control the line. The same is true for the cold nosed dog that excels in sub-zero temps. They often will start moving the track a bit faster when they keep getting the line taken from them by the faster hotter nosed dogs.
There is not a great difference between the fast dog and the slow dog but it is a difference. In my opinion if you try to build a pack with dogs that are as close to identical as you can get them then you are going to need a pack of dogs that excel in everything or you will have an average pack at best.
How would a team of quartebacks do against even an average NFL team? How about a basketball team made up of just Centers? A baseball team of all pitchers? I guess, Joe Montana, Wilt Chamberlin, and Randy Johnson should be considered culls because they were specialist?
I hope I did not offend anyone. To each his own is what my father used to say. All my dogs are slightly different.
I had a wind smelling jump dog that could stop on a dime and dive at a rabbit that I got rid of. He was the last dog to bark before a hard check all the time. He was ruining the pack by mouthing through an overrun and pulling dogs out of the check area. I watched him for a while after that and I think he was too competitive and would create a lead for himself. When I left him at home the runs were better and the checks were shorter. When a dog made the turn and or took the check he was always playing catch up. He had a gift but he had to go !
I chose the type of dogs that I wanted and tried to build on that. I run all year long and primarily have dogs to hunt with. I trial a few times per year because I like it and I get to see others dogs and meet people who have one of the same interests that I do. I know people that have great dogs that are not the style I like and I don't bad mouth them. I had a conversation with another beagler that said he could tell me how many times his champion dog could chop in a minute when he smelled a rabbit. I told him that the only thing I could tell was how many times mine barked in a minute when they did not smell a rabbit. None !
jumpmaster wrote:I dont understand wanting a pack of dogs that you can throw a blanket over. If we all get together to look for a missing dog, would we be better off all in a tight group, or spreading out, each looking on his own?
A missing dog is a bad analogy in my opinion. When you look for your dog do you and your buddies start in the next county or do you start where you last saw or heard the missing dog. The dog could be moving, the line of rabbit scent is not moving.
How wide is too wide, in your opinion? Depending on the game, I think five feet off the line is about the limit for dogs trying to follow a hot line. If they get much more than five feet off the line they are usually following the pack rather than trying to get some scent.
A dog with a decent nose has a better chance of recovering the line at the point of loss than spread out over a hundred yards. In addition the AKC rule book indicates that the dog should start searching for the line at the point of loss and then reach out. Independence is a virtue. On a loss they should start at the point of loss but all should search independently, not follow each other like a bunch turkeys.
Do all mine do that? No, but that's what I strive for.
"You could throw a balnket over them" is an old term beaglers use for a pack of beagles RUNNING the rabbit. Meaning that they are all engaged in the chase, on line and a very well matched pack.
I would not be happy if my hounds were running a rabbit and were spread out over 20 or 30 yards.
Certainly hunting as you are refering to is an entirely different matter. I like hard hunters who all seek to find a rabbit. I hope this helps.
JMHO --- A fast dogs make up for mistakes ( ie losing contact with the line ) by hustle, simply covering more ground to retrieve the scent cone, and their runs are simply fast bursts of speed , followed by rejumps of the rabbits.
Personally this is my biggest gripe with beagles. I have posted on here that beagles are my third choice of hunting dogs, first is coyotes, second is hogs, and I still prefer working my bite dogs more.
Sooooooo , what I feel is a big negative on beagles is style . When I first got into this hobby in 95 I called Jim Byram and talked to him on the phone. He told me a good rabbit dog is a good rabbit dog, , and he could shoot rabbits all day over both style of dogs. I believe this is when he was shifting out of his blue dogs and and going with with his lizard creek tadpole dog and such.
A faulty dog is a faulty dog, speed isnt in the equation. If you need an anchor dog; the other dogs are faulty, period.
Tim H--- I wont comment on the sports analogy because it sooo wrong . I bought a dog out of Crank you did and eval on. Hmmmmm !!!!!!
B. Trull, you say right from the start that you hold the opinion a fast dog needs to make up for mistakes. Your wrong, period. Simply because a dog is fast doesn't mean they are making mistakes. By that analogy, the slower the dog the better it is, I haven't seen that to be true.
You are welcome to your opinion and you can build packs anyway you want, I just wonder why it is for your way to appear to be the best way you need for the other guys dogs to be faulty to make your way appear better?
Maybe I'm just not as good at evaluating dogs as you are, I have to actually see a dog run before I can point out it's faults, I wonder why judges bother traveling to trials if we can do all the judging we need from right here at the keyboard?
Explain to me your comment about you buying a dog out of Crank. I really don't know what that has to do with me.
IMHO, to me an anchor dog will keep up with the pack but concentrates intensely on the line and does not over run the line (runs it's own rabbit), is not too competitive (does not have to be in the front) and has a superior nose (but does not cold trail or babble). My female (Belle) accounts for most of the jumps and my male Jack drives the rabbit hard. My new addition (Blue) appears to be another great jump dog with drive and check ability. My new pup (Annie) which is a mix of old SPO blood and hare hound I am hoping becomes my anchor in my pack. I watched her parents run a rabbit on ground so dry that one match would have started a forest fire. The ground was actually cracked like the desert with dried leaves everywhere and it was a little windy. These two dogs actually circled a rabbit in these conditions which is amazing and it was around 12:30 high noon. But, if Annie ends up being exactly like my other three hounds that is OK too. None of them are for sale if that says anything.
I've been reading the posts on this topic and this is my preference in my pack. I like to run 6 to 8 dogs, all solid with good hunt, good check work, and can run their own rabbit and contributes to the pack in all aspects with similar style and close speed. I think we all know some will be better at certain things on some days given the running conditions. I believe an over average pack of dogs will have all of those dogs swapping accomplishments on various trips to the woods. It is my feeling that if one dog spealizes or always cleans up the race or always does the jumping or (as I like to call it) always handles the dirty work which is keeps the race going when conditions are tuff, be it the scenting or the place your at etc. the question would be what if something happen to that dog. JMO
Rabbithoundjb, I think you're on target with your comments. Some dogs will be better at some things than the others and my opinion is build your pack based on what strengths it has rather than eliminating strengths along with weaknesses. When conditions change it makes some dogs stronger it doesn't necessarily make the other dogs weaker.
I've found that no one dog dominates the pack. The anchor dog is simply that one dog that fills the middle and holds the rest of the pack a bit closer. I've run the pack without the anchor dog and it doesn't come unglued, the pack is simply tighter with that anchor dog. I run multiple combinations with the dogs I've had and had no problem switching the packs up. The pack that I run on any given day may have a different dog as the anchor dog depending on the conditions.
Also what you say about the dogs having to run their own rabbits is essential for a good pack no matter how you put it together.
Houndsman.you must run in alot of open ground, because if you are running in multifor rose buches and green briars .your doges are going to be lined out in a straight line at times to thick for a bunch of dogs to get through, here in md, wva this is a cimmon running condition, but i do think a god rear dog is a help in a pack. I RUN 6 TO 8 DOGS AT A TIME IN ALL CONDITONS, WHEN YOU SELL YOUR FRONT END REJECTS CONTACT ME. ALL DOGS ARE DIFERNT JUST LIKE PEOPLE.
beagle trials are ment to be enjoyed , they should be fair to the best of the honest oppinion
I have ran with a few people that want their dogs in a tight pack in the check area, they always say, man look at those dogs working that check, you can throw a blanket over them all. I dont want my dog to just keep on running in a check, but I do like a pack work it very quick, and keep searching out . If my dog over runs the track, I like it to start circling back to where it last smelled it, if it happens to pick it up before getting back, even better. I have seen some anchor dogs that were worth their weight in gold, in certain situations. The same dogs really didnt contribute at all on other days. It takes a special kind of dog to run with faster dogs time after time, and not blow up or get crazy, and wait for the conditions to be bad enough to shine.
To be clear, I am hoping that what I consider an anchor dog will also contribute greatly in jump and hunt. I just want her to hold the line on those tough scent days and keep the runs going for 30 minutes or better with no losses and few checks. I love it when the runs are long and the rabbit is circled 4 or 5 times before it is killed. Where I hunt it is usually pretty thick so the rabbit has many chances to escape.
Kind of what it really boils down to me is this; No dog in your pack should be weak in any area. But say for instance because of certain strength of one dog say in the check area maybe a check goes from 15-20 seconds to 10-15 seconds. With out that dog your pack still makes the pick up but just not quite as fast.
Or maybe because one swings a little wider while one holds a little tighter each one will contribute to keeping that race going depending on the circumstance. I like having both styles in the pack I am hunting. I don't want to tight and I don't want to wild. But a little difference can be an asset to the pack. And when the rabbit is jumped both are running to catch.
Where did I say all fast dogs are faulty ???? I am just giving one example of how any speed of dog could be faulty. If you need an anchor dog, your have hounds over running their noses, period. Pack any style of dogs you want, however you want.
