There are many examples how the AKC has helped the hunters and how they fight for our rights to hunt and trial.
Below is just an example of ONE instance. Go to the AKC site and do a search. Lots of behind the scenes stuff the AKC does for us. They seek out these hidden bills, loby to get the bill thrown out or necessary wording changed......
From the AKC website:
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?SEARC ... le_id=2414
Hunters and dog fanciers in Texas are extremely concerned about HB326 and its companion, SB172. The identical bills would amend the state's cruelty law in several ways. First, the measures make it a crime to cause bodily injury to an animal, with "animal" being defined as any "nonhuman mammal, bird or captive amphibian or reptile." The exemption for wild creatures (those that are often hunted) has been removed. Furthermore, while the existing cruelty law includes a straightforward exemption for those who hunt, fish or trap, HB326/SB172 changes that language to say that hunting "may be used as a defense" if you are prosecuted for animal cruelty. These changes mean that hunters could more easily be charged with cruelty and consequently be forced to defend themselves in court.
HB326/SB172 would also criminalize "training or conditioning" one animal to fight with another. While Texas dog owners strongly oppose dog fighting, they worry that training for field trials and hunt or coonhound tests could be included in this definition. Those who use treadmills and similar devices to keep their dogs in shape for competition also worry that under HB326/S172, mere evidence of this equipment would create a presumption that owners are training dogs to fight.
Texas fanciers and sportsmen strongly support proper care and humane treatment of all animals through enforcement of the state's existing cruelty statute. They firmly believe in dog owners' responsibility to provide adequate and nutritious diet, clean water, clean living conditions, regular veterinary care, kind and responsive human companionship, and training in appropriate behavior. Although they strongly support preventing cruelty to animals, they believe that HB326/SB172 includes vague definitions that could not only criminalize hunting, but would also eliminate an owner's intent, thereby subjecting innocent individuals to the full force of a felony conviction.
What You Can Do:
H326 has been referred to the House Committee on Agriculture and Livestock, while S172 was referred to the Senate Committee on Criminal Justice. Contact the members of those committees to express your concerns!
House Committee on Agriculture and Livestock
Capitol Bldg #E2.162
Austin, TX 78768-2910
Phone:512/463-0762
Chair: Rep. Rick Hardcastle
Phone:512/463-0526, FAX:512/463-6003
Vice-Chair: Rep. Charles "Doc" Anderson
Phone:512/463-0845
Members:
Rep. Betty Brown
Phone:512/463-0458, FAX:512/463-2040, Email: betty.brown@house.state.tx.us
Rep. Lon Burnam
Phone:512/463-0740, Email: lon.burnam@house.state.tx.us
Rep. Jessica Farrar
Phone:512/463-0620
Rep. Abel Herrero
Phone:512/463-0845
Rep. Dora Olivo
Phone:512/463-0494, FAX:512/463-1403
Senate Criminal Justice
Sam Houston Bldg #335
Austin, TX 78711
Phone:512/463-0345
Chair: Sen. John Whitmire
(512) 463-0115
Vice-Chair: Sen. Kel Seliger
(512) 463-0131
Members:
Sen. John Carona (512) 463-0116
Sen. Rodney Ellis (512) 463-0113
Sen. Juan Hinojosa 512) 463-0120
Sen. Steve Ogden (512) 463-0105
Sen. Tommy Williams (512) 463-0104
For additional information, contact:
Responsible Pet Owners Alliance
http://www.responsiblepetowners.org
Mary Beth Duerler
rpoa@texas.net
(210) 822-6763
What has AKC done for us?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
While most of my dogs are AKC registered, I am very thankful that they aren't the only registry out there. The UKC and ARHA have both done tons of good for ALL working dogs, not just the beagles. Unfortunately, the AKC hasn't done a very good job of promoting working dogs, in general. Most working dogs are registered in other registries and compete in other formats than the AKC (again, not just beagles).
I've always heard that the AKC does very little to protect the rights of sportsmen and working/hunting dogs. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is a prevalent rumor nontheless. Go to the UKC site, then check out the AKC site-the difference in what they focus on is quite obvious.
This is a very interesting topic, I'm sure there will be lots of differing opinions!!
-Stacy
I've always heard that the AKC does very little to protect the rights of sportsmen and working/hunting dogs. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is a prevalent rumor nontheless. Go to the UKC site, then check out the AKC site-the difference in what they focus on is quite obvious.
This is a very interesting topic, I'm sure there will be lots of differing opinions!!
-Stacy
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jonnyringo
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:14 pm
I couldn't agree more and I will not breed dogs that are not AKC registered. That is just my personal preference.Beagled1 wrote:
You're not looking at it from a breeder's point of view.
First & foremost, I register with AKC in a time when there are so many other options because I don't trust several of the other registeries. The others you mentioned are open regestries, some where all you need is a pic and a vet statement to get your dog a reg. certificate. Come on. If I am paying for a purebred at a specific price I want a complete pedigree going back at least 3 generations. Many other regestries cannot provide this. I can trace back 100 years with AKC.
If you just want a hunting dog or only plan to breed on the rare occasion and keep pups for yourself, then it probably doesn't matter what papers or lack of them your dogs has. But I think most of us who are rabbit hunting with hounds are in it for BOTH the sport and a love of the breed. Speaking for myself, I will not place much value on a grade dog for a breeding program. A grade Beagle of my own turned out to be a superior hunting dog, and since I had no plans to breed her or start a line from her, her lack of pedigree was of no consequence.
However, when you breed purebred dogs, things can go fine in the first generation than go to pot in the second. We NEED to know the vertical & horizontal pedigrees to determine to the best of our abilities what our hounds are likely to produce in hunt style, conformation, health. A good hound may produce garbage, mediocrity, or pups better than themselves. A look through bloodlines will give you a hint as to what lines are the best producers, what bloodlines mesh well, etc.
Again, speaking for myself, I don't trial very often, but sending AKC my $20 is important so that they can contiune to provide field trials and keep this aspect of the breed/sport alive. It might not affect me directly, but I see it as helping the sport. Now, there are other reputable registries out there, that I have no problem dual registering with, but as for using them as the sole registry ... well, honestly with some of the new ones cropping up, there is just no assurance a dog registered with one of them will actually be a purebred or will breed true. So yes, I would pay more for an AKC dog than with other registries - save for a handful - and I do mean a handful of other closed registries. JMHO.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
Let's be honest here..........there are many people who mis-use AKC as well as UKC and any other register. If we truly knew how many hounds were being switched with AKC papers that weren't theirs we'd all cringe. It is this way with all breeds of dogs. It was even this way many years ago when I raised AKC Rotts. People were all the time trying to get me to falsify puppy registeration papers in order to get their dog registered. Not saying everyone abuses but believe me there are many dishonest dog jockeys out there.I read on a beagle board the other day about someone who witnessed guys trading AKC papers. I am new to beagling and would love to know the fellow from Indiana (I am also from Indiana) so as to make sure he don't scam me. I can only hope that the 2 AKC dogs that I own are truly who they are suppose to be...but the fact of the matter is I can't be sure of that as I am sure many others can't be. JMO
Ronny
Ronny
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ny hillbilly
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:05 pm
Ronnyg,
This topic always gets me going! You are right on the money that there is always a chance of crooked people and papers no matter the registry. The real deal to me is if you plan to sell any of your pups that you can't or don't want to keep they need to be AKC and that is because of the bias. As far as cross bred mutts being registered don't think for a minute that AKC is immune. I would only ask you to look at some of the prick eared, cat foot, shaggy hounds, some with eyes like a Husky out there that look a good portion feist. Or look at some of the real slow bred "beagles" that you would have to be blind to not see the Bassett in them. I have seen good and bad hounds in all registries and put no stock in any of them until I see them jump a rabbit, push to the gun and not take off for high timber after the shot. And no beagle is a champion to me unless it can do the fore mentioned "outside a fence".
NYH
This topic always gets me going! You are right on the money that there is always a chance of crooked people and papers no matter the registry. The real deal to me is if you plan to sell any of your pups that you can't or don't want to keep they need to be AKC and that is because of the bias. As far as cross bred mutts being registered don't think for a minute that AKC is immune. I would only ask you to look at some of the prick eared, cat foot, shaggy hounds, some with eyes like a Husky out there that look a good portion feist. Or look at some of the real slow bred "beagles" that you would have to be blind to not see the Bassett in them. I have seen good and bad hounds in all registries and put no stock in any of them until I see them jump a rabbit, push to the gun and not take off for high timber after the shot. And no beagle is a champion to me unless it can do the fore mentioned "outside a fence".
NYH
Because some day you may change your mind, or the people who buy your pups may want to, and it's a shame to let $20 close your options forever.This isn't to slam AKC trials/events, just a rational question of "Why should I register if I don't attend events sanctioned by them".
Dang, Rick. I hope you're talking about a DIFFERENT friend of yours with a bitch named Dolly, lol! I know she's strange-colored for a beagle, but I promise she's not a mixed breed...A friend of mine has a dog named Dolly. She is picture perfect to breed standerd's. ( I am a lic. conformation judge) But her mom is a lab mix, and her dad was yet another mixed bred mut.
[/quote]
I am simply saying that just because a dog is AKC registered doesn't guarantee anything. Sure simply having an AKC registered pup helps the price when you sell, but people have found ways to cheat the system just like every other system out there. I hope that people are honest but we all know there are those out there who are in it to try and make a buck. I am not slamming anyone or any organization. My hope is that there are more honest people out there than crooks and so far anyone I have encountered in the beagling community whether it be local or online has been very helpful and understanding to us rookies. So thanks to all you honest beaglers. And for the crooks......screw each other! JMO
Ronny
Ronny
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jonnyringo
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:14 pm
Just like most hunters don't poach but there a few poachers. Just do your homework before you buy and remember you usually get what you pay for. The system is not perfect but is the purest registry in North America, along with CKC.Ronnyg wrote:I am simply saying that just because a dog is AKC registered doesn't guarantee anything. Ronny
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
Rick G and Siver Zuk...
IF you have paid your dues ($) to the AKC, and you have these questions and concerns, have you contacted the AKC to ask them directly?
I've had to call the AKC twice in the past, and both times someone answered the phone... Can the others say the same?
I'm not taking sides, but i always tell my wife, dont bitch about something if your not willing to try and correct it.
IF you have paid your dues ($) to the AKC, and you have these questions and concerns, have you contacted the AKC to ask them directly?
I've had to call the AKC twice in the past, and both times someone answered the phone... Can the others say the same?
I'm not taking sides, but i always tell my wife, dont bitch about something if your not willing to try and correct it.
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jonnyringo
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:14 pm
Well, we all can voice our opinions good or bad about AKC, but I will ask who has a more accurate and honest registry for the beagle in the USA?
I know several people who complain about the NRA and say they no longer do anytihng for the gun owner. Same ole arguement. Do we all just abandon the NRA and the AKC? Not I! That would be ridiculous IMHO.
I know several people who complain about the NRA and say they no longer do anytihng for the gun owner. Same ole arguement. Do we all just abandon the NRA and the AKC? Not I! That would be ridiculous IMHO.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
[/quote]
A grade Beagle of my own turned out to be a superior hunting dog, and since I had no plans to breed her or start a line from her, her lack of pedigree was of no consequence.
If a dog was exactly what you want in a beagle, why would you not breed it?
What consequence to the breed does not being registered have?
I like to look at pedigrees. Mostly I only recognize a few names and am lucky to have seen one or two on the pedigree run. I ask others about specific dogs, but don’t make a decision about the dog until I see it work.
[/quote]
She may have been exactly what I wanted, but how would breeding a grade dog better the breed? I would have no idea what she PRODUCED! That is where the sport of beagling branches off from the breeding program aspect. I could not be 100% certain she was purebred, and if she was not, its unlikely she would have "bred true". Which basically means that purebreds will *usually* consistantly produce pups that have similar or better traits than the sire & dam. I've seen many of my own pups out of a particular bitch who were obvious throwbacks to her sire. Just because you pair two good hunting dogs does not mean you will get a litter of good hunting dogs! A dog whose heritage is shady could possibly produce, as someone else mentioned, pups that were obviously of mongrol heritage with no hunt - again, its not what your hounds are, its all about what they produce. That is what keeps a good breeding program alive, and a bloodline of excellent producers are what betters the breed. Nothing else. What good is it if your dog is near faultless herself but throws a litter of culls time and again? What progress has been made?
As for pedigree research, most of us do not know the history of each and every single hound in there. But what most of us do know is a good deal of info on the ones that appear most often or will talk to the breeder of a certain kennel name that appears in it, or will locate others who have related dogs out of that line ... thats all pedigree research. It does reveal a good deal about the faults and strong points we are most likely to come across & does help us make more informed breedings. If you do breed, you really need to know as much as you can about the dogs in the pedigree - its not just a piece of paper ...
A grade Beagle of my own turned out to be a superior hunting dog, and since I had no plans to breed her or start a line from her, her lack of pedigree was of no consequence.
If a dog was exactly what you want in a beagle, why would you not breed it?
What consequence to the breed does not being registered have?
I like to look at pedigrees. Mostly I only recognize a few names and am lucky to have seen one or two on the pedigree run. I ask others about specific dogs, but don’t make a decision about the dog until I see it work.
[/quote]
She may have been exactly what I wanted, but how would breeding a grade dog better the breed? I would have no idea what she PRODUCED! That is where the sport of beagling branches off from the breeding program aspect. I could not be 100% certain she was purebred, and if she was not, its unlikely she would have "bred true". Which basically means that purebreds will *usually* consistantly produce pups that have similar or better traits than the sire & dam. I've seen many of my own pups out of a particular bitch who were obvious throwbacks to her sire. Just because you pair two good hunting dogs does not mean you will get a litter of good hunting dogs! A dog whose heritage is shady could possibly produce, as someone else mentioned, pups that were obviously of mongrol heritage with no hunt - again, its not what your hounds are, its all about what they produce. That is what keeps a good breeding program alive, and a bloodline of excellent producers are what betters the breed. Nothing else. What good is it if your dog is near faultless herself but throws a litter of culls time and again? What progress has been made?
As for pedigree research, most of us do not know the history of each and every single hound in there. But what most of us do know is a good deal of info on the ones that appear most often or will talk to the breeder of a certain kennel name that appears in it, or will locate others who have related dogs out of that line ... thats all pedigree research. It does reveal a good deal about the faults and strong points we are most likely to come across & does help us make more informed breedings. If you do breed, you really need to know as much as you can about the dogs in the pedigree - its not just a piece of paper ...
A few years ago I did quite a bit of research into the AKC and here is what I know:
For your $20 you get:
An alliance with HSUS (If you don't know who they are do a google search)
The High Volume Breeders Committee (aka Commercial Kennels)
A push AWAY from breeds doing the work they were bred for (Check out the Poodle).
Don't kid yourself to think that the AKC derives much income from field trials. Most of their income comes from litter registrations and shows.
Let's also not forget where the AKC started from. The AKC started because scientists needed to be able to track the bloodlines of their lab animals (btw mainly beagles) came from so they would be close in genetic structure.
Personally I own several AKC registered dogs. I view the AKC as more of a necessary evil. If the UKC or one of the other registries got a good foothold close to me I would use them over the AKC any day.
Dane
For your $20 you get:
An alliance with HSUS (If you don't know who they are do a google search)
The High Volume Breeders Committee (aka Commercial Kennels)
A push AWAY from breeds doing the work they were bred for (Check out the Poodle).
Don't kid yourself to think that the AKC derives much income from field trials. Most of their income comes from litter registrations and shows.
Let's also not forget where the AKC started from. The AKC started because scientists needed to be able to track the bloodlines of their lab animals (btw mainly beagles) came from so they would be close in genetic structure.
Personally I own several AKC registered dogs. I view the AKC as more of a necessary evil. If the UKC or one of the other registries got a good foothold close to me I would use them over the AKC any day.
Dane
"The system is not perfect but is the purest registry in North America"
Then why is AKC registering anything anyone wants to call a coonhound for free?
Here is what I have gotten from AKC:
A chance to sign up for their credit card.
A chance to buy a vacuum cleaner (isn't AKC supposed to be non-profit?)
A low quality set of papers without pedigrees (that costs extra)
A letter from some guy with a name I can't pronounce everytime my paperwork isn't filled out correctly (about half the time the mistake was theirs).
A phone conversation with someone who knows nothing about hounds or hunting when we need to call AKC about something like why we haven't gotten our papers yet.
I have had several AKC registered pups that did not make dogs that I could hunt rabbits with. We have a female that was ARHA registered with no pedigree that, when bred has given us some of the best rabbit dogs we could ask for. They look, and most importantly HUNT like a beagle is supposed to. There have been a bunch of AKC beagles given a FC title that you could not shoot rabbits over.
Here are some more AKC registered beagles:
http://www.foxbeagle.net/studdogs.html
AKC is a business. Without customers they will cease to exist. Seems like they would treat us a little better. I guess they decided they don't need us anymore.
Then why is AKC registering anything anyone wants to call a coonhound for free?
Here is what I have gotten from AKC:
A chance to sign up for their credit card.
A chance to buy a vacuum cleaner (isn't AKC supposed to be non-profit?)
A low quality set of papers without pedigrees (that costs extra)
A letter from some guy with a name I can't pronounce everytime my paperwork isn't filled out correctly (about half the time the mistake was theirs).
A phone conversation with someone who knows nothing about hounds or hunting when we need to call AKC about something like why we haven't gotten our papers yet.
I have had several AKC registered pups that did not make dogs that I could hunt rabbits with. We have a female that was ARHA registered with no pedigree that, when bred has given us some of the best rabbit dogs we could ask for. They look, and most importantly HUNT like a beagle is supposed to. There have been a bunch of AKC beagles given a FC title that you could not shoot rabbits over.
Here are some more AKC registered beagles:
http://www.foxbeagle.net/studdogs.html
AKC is a business. Without customers they will cease to exist. Seems like they would treat us a little better. I guess they decided they don't need us anymore.
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SouthernBeagles
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:41 pm
Tom,TomMN wrote: There have been a bunch of AKC beagles given a FC title that you could not shoot rabbits over.
THE AKC tests for gunshyness at EVERY SINGLE TRIAL by shooting over the pack. I know of no ther format that does this. The CLOSEST TEST would be certification of a Progressive Pack Champion BUT if a PP dog wins a big 4 hunt they don't have to certify............
I love how you guys keep slipping these little BS snips about these AKC dogs to validate? your grade dogs or promote the other registries? Sure it is possible that an AKC FC became gunshy after he or she finished or possibly made it through all the trials and handled being fired over through the trialing carrier but more probable AND EASIER to slip a gun shy dog through the other formats that don't test for gunshyness at all and make a Champion out of it!!!!!
AKC is a business. Without customers they will cease to exist. Seems like they would treat us a little better. I guess they decided they don't need us anymore.
The NKC is a buisness
The UKC is a buisness
The CKC is a buisness
The other CKC is a buisness
and so are all these OTHER little pet registries out there
How (aside from gving you guys with grade dogs a place to compete) has any of these registries helped you MORE than AKC?
I remember when I used to trial ARHA and when NKC took over. Sure you got a 3 generation pedigree BUT YOU had to fill it out when you registered your dog!!! LMAO Thats not that impressive to me!
The UKC is the same way, they only know what ol spots momma and daddy are IF You tell them BUT its funny how even THESE registries take AKC dogs without question or need to be inspected.
Look, I am not knocking anyones dogs or registries, only defending mine. A dog doesn't know if it has papers or not and papers do not make the dog. There are good and bad dogs no matter where you look but don't blame it on the registry, blame it on the breeding.
Last edited by SouthernBeagles on Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't squat with your spurs on!