Brace and SPO question?

BuschBound · Post by **BuschBound** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:53 pm

I'm new to the SPO world as far as really looking up rules and things but I did come across a section in the book as a Hound shall " over take its game and account for it." Now how can this be in the brace world? I have heard some stories that these brace dogs walk a line and bark like 10 times before making a step. So how can AKC promote these beagles with thier rulings.. I have run Midwest gundog and now these dogs run with intent to "over take and account for thier game". I'd bet there are a few SPO guys who have attend a brace trial and with the same rules as SPO should a dog get picked up if he is leaving another dog in the dust...just wondering. Does this rule also come into affect for dogs that are not running with in the pack. Lets say the winners pack has 8 real fast hounds and there is a hound thats running way behind but on line, and does his share on the checks but can't run with the big boys! Should he be ordered up because he's not showing intent to over take his game...

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:10 am

Brace hounds and SPO hounds are two totally different dogs. Brace hounds are useless and are hobby dogs. SPO dogs are gundogs. Medium speed with line control.

By the way, he brings up a good point. Since that is the definition, how in the heck can a dog get picked up for getting to much rabbit.

That is the reason I don't run SPO. Let a judge tell me that and there is going to be one heck of a scene.

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:53 am

Al, I was told that very same thing at a SPO trial last year! The hound I had down jumped the rabbit and scenting was obviously good and he was running head-up, screaming every breath he drew, locked on the line like he was tied to it. The hound was the 2nd one picked up!! I politely asked the judge why he chose to pick the dog up and his quick, short reply was "The dog was running too much of the front"! I just looked at him kinda sideways and extended my hand and shook his hand and told him thanks for judging. The first dog picked up was lagging way behind, on the line, but was not much more than a walkie-talkie. Over the course of the day I watched several casts run. The judges were consistently picking up any and all dogs that got out from under the "blanket-pack" we hear about. The blanket-packs were all on average lower-medium in speed. Any dog caught another gear on the line and it was picked up quickly. This trial was at a UBGF club. I guess thats why I personally prefer ARHA trialing (a scoring system versus the judges opinion!).

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:04 am

You and me both! Kinda makes you wonder what them FC's really are. We could be breeding from nothing but pack dogs. I don't know whay they are like that. It seems to me that if a dog is running the line the way it is supposed to be and that dogs is faster then so be it. Like AKC says, they are supposed to run the game to overtake it. Oh well.

KPrice · Post by **KPrice** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:13 am

Just my opinion on the matter. When you hear people discussing the performance of a judge in SPO, it always boils down to how good was the WINNERS PACK that they put down. If the pack ran smooth and check free, the judges are considered to have done a good job. That makes me think that this is how dogs are evaluated in the early rounds. If you have a hound that does everything right, but keeps the rest of the pack strung out, he's not going to advance. To each his own, but I would rather have my hound judged on his own accomplishments.

Novice · Post by **Novice** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:38 am

I completely understand the frustration here. but there are a few things to consider. the first is you entered your dog in a Small PACK Option format. One of the primary things that a dog is judged by is cooporation with his pack mates. In Spo the judges are looking for dogs with gears. to my understanding this means a dog only runs as fast as it needs to run to controll the pack.
The draw back here is if a dog takes the front he must be abel to hold the front. to my limited understanding this means he must not loose the rabbit or cause his own checks in doing so he is not holding the front and therefore is running faster than his nose.
Now before I go any further let me say that I run in the North East and our SPO may be a bit faster dog than the UBGF is running. But the dogs still have to be clean.
As to the blanket packs; The judgesare judging a pack trial so yes they are judged on the quality of the packs that they put together for the winners pack. the winners pack should be comprised of the best pack dogs at that trial. Notice I didn't say the absolute best dog. So the best pack dog should exibit all of the atributes that is needed to be the best pack small pack dog there that day. The dog needs to show in the back in the middle and the front of the pack.
I know that this explanation won't make you feel any better. But that is the way I understand a SPO trial to be.
I guess that is why we have so manny diffirent formats these days. there is something for everyone.
Also very important to keep in mind that the judge is only giving his opinion of your dog that day. the operative word here is opinion. and we all know what those are worth and that they allways vary from person to pearson or judge to judge. Good runnin til the gunnin and tight lines John

KPrice · Post by **KPrice** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:52 am

Novice, don't take my comments to be out of frustration. I understand what the judges in SPO are trying to accomplish. I just don't favor that format and would rather see a hound awarded for his own accomplishment. I guess that is why I prefer ARHA competition. I can also appreciate your comments that if a dog is running the front in SPO, he better be able to handle it. My experience has shown that some judges won't even give the lead hound a chance to prove he can handle it without causing checks. They would rather pick that dog up than have him string out the rest of the pack.

Novice · Post by **Novice** » Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:16 am

KPrice, I hear you But it is hard for me to make any comments on ARHA trials as I have only heard others opinions on them. I live in the North East and there aren't any ARHA trails up this way yet. But I look forward to the day that there may be. I would like to experience one for myself. As to SPO that and LPH GDB are the optins availabel to me at this time. I can tell you this thought in the NE there are judges who let them run to catch as long as they don't start causing to manny checks. they like for them to run smoth. with the most possibel speed that their nose will allow I have seen dogs picked up fpor not keeping up with the pack as well as dogs that were exploding out of a check with the rabbit and blowing it up 50 yards up the line and not beeing abel to find it again . I think you hit it right on the head when you stated SOME judges that is the key is to run under judges that apreciate the same type of dog you do. By doing this the clubs are forced to hire those type of judges so that they will have enti=ries. remember a club puts on a trial to make money to suport the club. So entries matter to them. Hey be thankfull that you have a format that suits you and the type of dog you like. I have heard from some people that don't . Good running till the gunnin and tight lines john

DG TX · Post by **DG TX** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:58 am

Brace (gundog) is a more one on one type trial. One winner and one looser in every brace. Not the pack experience.

Ed B - TX · Post by **Ed B - TX** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:56 am

This idea that a hound that is running all the front and leaving nothing undone for the rest of the pack to do should be picked up because it is not cooperating with the pack is ridiculous. It is penalizing excellence. It says that we need to breed for politeness in our hounds. We need to breed for hounds that fight for the “middle” and defer to their pack-mates. They should allow pack-mates to go first and wait patiently when they are making an easy job look hard. After all to go by the struggling hound that “stylishly stays” at unnecessary checks would be ….rude?

I thought we are supposed to be looking for the best hounds entered, not looking to put together a nice little 2-couple pack of flawless jogging dogs that were otherwise soundly beaten by more talented hounds in earlier series.

I prefer AKC to the other registries and formats but certainly AKC and its judging procedures are flawed. The rule book is not divinely inspired or infallible as some want to treat it. If it were we would not have such a wide range of speeds and styles being promoted using basically the same rules. The positive aspect to the "flexibility" found in the rule book is judges are free to allow good judgment and common sense keep them from making mistakes like the ones mentioned above. However, for some reason fads seem to over ride common sense when the best hounds are often so easy to see.