AKC Brace beagles?
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jonnyringo
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AKC Brace beagles?
When did AKC brace beagles become walkie talkies or were they always walkie talkies? Or, what era or decade did the beagel become bred to track at that slow of pace? Was there ever an AKC brace beagle that ran medium or faster speed.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
Johnny, pesonal experience takes me back to 1970, when I got my first beagle. I had an uncle who was a member of the Webster Pa. Beagle Club who would send me hounds that weren't walkie-talkie enough for the trials of the day. To me, they were pure gold. I had one whose 3-generation pedigree had Pearson Creek Carson about 5 times. I think they had been going on for a long time by then. I'm not the oldest on this board so someone may have some history form the 60's or before. it has been my understanding that hounds that were too fast ended up in places like mine as gundogs. BTW, I killed my first rabbit with one of those with a .410 Winchester Model 37 at the age of 10.
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Alabama John
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Jonny
A dog that will do good in a trial format that gets points for how close it runs a track will have to be slow enough for the judges to follow on foot and observe the dogs on track at all times.
Brace dogs in the 40's and 50's moved a track faster than now, but still trailed slow, heads down, close track runners.
Field Champion AKC Beagles back then, would not be succesful in most of the trial formats of today. Brace was all their was to my knowledge. So, all AKC FC from back then were Brace Beagles.
I saw several of the big named Kennels FC and all I saw were very slow, the judges could follow by walking slowly, but right on the track.
FC of today as a whole are much better to gun hunt with than the old FCs were.
A dog that will do good in a trial format that gets points for how close it runs a track will have to be slow enough for the judges to follow on foot and observe the dogs on track at all times.
Brace dogs in the 40's and 50's moved a track faster than now, but still trailed slow, heads down, close track runners.
Field Champion AKC Beagles back then, would not be succesful in most of the trial formats of today. Brace was all their was to my knowledge. So, all AKC FC from back then were Brace Beagles.
I saw several of the big named Kennels FC and all I saw were very slow, the judges could follow by walking slowly, but right on the track.
FC of today as a whole are much better to gun hunt with than the old FCs were.
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jonnyringo
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So when did the Large Pack field trails begin? Is that where the fast dogs were started to be bred? I know the SPO dogs were faster than the brace dogs. Which came first - the AKC SPO or the LPH trials? I am just curious because many of the champions of today who run at fast speeds ancestors were brace dogs. So I guess I am amazed at how genetics were manipulated to produce all these different speed dogs. Truely amazing to me.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
Large Pack Hare was going on at least fifty years before the SPO movement started. Interesting that Wilcliffe Boogie, the dog that started the walkie talkie Brace Trial beagles can also be found in many of the top LPH hounds pedigrees.
Back in the 70's several top Hare bred beagles were brought to the south and crossed with the Brace hounds for hunting. That lasted a few years then the Brace Trial type beaglers took over the SPO and now most of the hounds winning SPO trials can be traced back to Limbo and Pearson Creek.
Back in the 70's several top Hare bred beagles were brought to the south and crossed with the Brace hounds for hunting. That lasted a few years then the Brace Trial type beaglers took over the SPO and now most of the hounds winning SPO trials can be traced back to Limbo and Pearson Creek.
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Larry G
The trouble with the brace hounds, or I should say one of the troubles, is that they were not cast to hunt and that was bred out of them. Maybe in the old days they did hunt. At the SPO trials I have attended, they will always announce that the judges can pick up your dog for not searching. I have never seen it happen, and if it did it would not be fair because many times they will lay a fresh pack right on a line, judge them, and not even give them the chance to show searching to start a rabbit.
In all they years I watched brace hounds get more and more worthless, the owners still maintained that they were following AKC guidelines for the hunting beagle (which states the dogs should show the desire to overtake the quarry ) and that their hounds were the best available for hunting rabbits. All this soon caused the popularity of SPO, ARHA and the other trials for hunting dogs and the demise ( just about anyway) of the traditional brace trials. People wanted to be able to hunt and trial the same dogs. That was originally what the trials were about, the best hunting dog.
I think it illustrates just how difficult it is to judge hounds in the field, which is the reason for the points system in ARHA. Do you fault 'em out, or give credit for good work? And just what is "running too much rabbit"? See, it is the same as a show ring... the judge has written rules to follow, but it comes down to what he likes or who he likes. Don't say it isn't so, because there are too many beaglers who refuse to run under certain judges, and who won't miss the chance to run under others.
In all they years I watched brace hounds get more and more worthless, the owners still maintained that they were following AKC guidelines for the hunting beagle (which states the dogs should show the desire to overtake the quarry ) and that their hounds were the best available for hunting rabbits. All this soon caused the popularity of SPO, ARHA and the other trials for hunting dogs and the demise ( just about anyway) of the traditional brace trials. People wanted to be able to hunt and trial the same dogs. That was originally what the trials were about, the best hunting dog.
I think it illustrates just how difficult it is to judge hounds in the field, which is the reason for the points system in ARHA. Do you fault 'em out, or give credit for good work? And just what is "running too much rabbit"? See, it is the same as a show ring... the judge has written rules to follow, but it comes down to what he likes or who he likes. Don't say it isn't so, because there are too many beaglers who refuse to run under certain judges, and who won't miss the chance to run under others.
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HatterasBob
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I attended AKC trials in the 50's with my father. Sometime around 1960 my father quite running AKC trials because those "Walkie-Talkies" are worthless for rabbit hunting. In about 1970 there was a hunting rabbit dog movement that became associated/bought by the AKC in ~1976. I remember reading so I believe the first Beagle trial was held in Mass in the late 1800's. If I missed the state or date I'm sure someone will correct me. Many of the large pack clubs have been in existance for 75 years or better.
Brace trials and their beagles have nothing to do with rabbit hunting. They are hobby hounds breed for a specific purpose which doesn't include hunting. They are ALL about style without accomplishment. I believe there are federations in SPO that are attempting to repeat the demise of the brace beagle, by also emphasizing style over accomplishment. Those federations will, if allowed, slow the SPO beagle down until they are also worthless for hunting. Just take a good look at the SPO Nationals! SPO beware!
Brace trials and their beagles have nothing to do with rabbit hunting. They are hobby hounds breed for a specific purpose which doesn't include hunting. They are ALL about style without accomplishment. I believe there are federations in SPO that are attempting to repeat the demise of the brace beagle, by also emphasizing style over accomplishment. Those federations will, if allowed, slow the SPO beagle down until they are also worthless for hunting. Just take a good look at the SPO Nationals! SPO beware!
Good Post.Larry G wrote:The trouble with the brace hounds, or I should say one of the troubles, is that they were not cast to hunt and that was bred out of them. Maybe in the old days they did hunt. At the SPO trials I have attended, they will always announce that the judges can pick up your dog for not searching. I have never seen it happen, and if it did it would not be fair because many times they will lay a fresh pack right on a line, judge them, and not even give them the chance to show searching to start a rabbit.
In all they years I watched brace hounds get more and more worthless, the owners still maintained that they were following AKC guidelines for the hunting beagle (which states the dogs should show the desire to overtake the quarry ) and that their hounds were the best available for hunting rabbits. All this soon caused the popularity of SPO, ARHA and the other trials for hunting dogs and the demise ( just about anyway) of the traditional brace trials. People wanted to be able to hunt and trial the same dogs. That was originally what the trials were about, the best hunting dog.
I think it illustrates just how difficult it is to judge hounds in the field, which is the reason for the points system in ARHA. Do you fault 'em out, or give credit for good work? And just what is "running too much rabbit"? See, it is the same as a show ring... the judge has written rules to follow, but it comes down to what he likes or who he likes. Don't say it isn't so, because there are too many beaglers who refuse to run under certain judges, and who won't miss the chance to run under others.
When the goal is anything but producing a good hunting dog the quality of the beagles is certain to decline. Man is lazy and selfish by nature and is prone to promote whatever type hound he likes rather than what is useful.
For example there is a thread on the espo board about hiding hounds faults. Notice the number of trialers who could care less about the faults as long as we can find a pill to hide the flaw long enough to win a ribbon. Yet they swear they are trying to improve the breed.
Its funny to me, to see the different replies to this question.
I'd have to agree with HatterasBob. My father ran dogs pretty much his whole life till the early eighties. In the forties and fifties, there were only brace dogs and hare dogs. Both types were your hunting dogs. They trialed them to do something with them when the season was over. There was no speed or style issue. In the sixties things started to change. Guys started getting older, clubs had to fence because of developement. No body wanted to run after the hounds to judge them or catch them. It just kept getting worse.
My father tells a story of the first time he saw "gundogs" run at his club. It must have been around the late seventies. He always coments on what a laugh he got out of it cause the dogs ran crazy and didn't pack up at all. I can remember when I was very young some trials being judged from horseback. Thats something that a modern brace guy would scrach his head about.
My dad always tried to keep a dog that you could hunt with, but in the early eighties, he couldn't find a trial that his dogs wouldn't get picked up in, for running to much rabbit. So he kept his dogs he had then, and just didn't breed or buy anymore after that
I wouldn't say that you could blame walkie talkies on any one dog or person. Its just something that happened. One thing that I have noticed, I think that Brace beaglers breed a lot more. For instance, a stud that shows up in my dog, is the sire of one of my fathers first dogs, if you find that stud in a brace dogs pedigree it would be many more generations back than it is in my dogs
I'd have to agree with HatterasBob. My father ran dogs pretty much his whole life till the early eighties. In the forties and fifties, there were only brace dogs and hare dogs. Both types were your hunting dogs. They trialed them to do something with them when the season was over. There was no speed or style issue. In the sixties things started to change. Guys started getting older, clubs had to fence because of developement. No body wanted to run after the hounds to judge them or catch them. It just kept getting worse.
My father tells a story of the first time he saw "gundogs" run at his club. It must have been around the late seventies. He always coments on what a laugh he got out of it cause the dogs ran crazy and didn't pack up at all. I can remember when I was very young some trials being judged from horseback. Thats something that a modern brace guy would scrach his head about.
My dad always tried to keep a dog that you could hunt with, but in the early eighties, he couldn't find a trial that his dogs wouldn't get picked up in, for running to much rabbit. So he kept his dogs he had then, and just didn't breed or buy anymore after that
I wouldn't say that you could blame walkie talkies on any one dog or person. Its just something that happened. One thing that I have noticed, I think that Brace beaglers breed a lot more. For instance, a stud that shows up in my dog, is the sire of one of my fathers first dogs, if you find that stud in a brace dogs pedigree it would be many more generations back than it is in my dogs
Harley Purvin
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jonnyringo
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Are brace trials on the decline and being overtaken exclusively with SPO trials. I was told this but don't know if it is true. I was told as the older guys keep kicking the bucket the younger guys controlling the clubs are looking for faster dogs and faster dog trials. I want to try the SPO format somtime. I don't hear about that many SPO trials in Ohio - mostly UKC and ARHA, in that order. My dogs are AKC registered and I would prefer to try and see if they can get their field championship in AKC. They run a medium to medium fast speed depending on conditions.
I really do not like the brace style hounds. I watched some down in Rio Grande Beagle Club in southern Ohio year ago. What a waste of time.
I really do not like the brace style hounds. I watched some down in Rio Grande Beagle Club in southern Ohio year ago. What a waste of time.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
I am a SPO guy at heart and would love to argue with HatterasBob, but my gun is empty. Not all SPO is style over accomplishment but a lot of it seems to be going that way. There are also plenty of SPO trials that are speed over accomplishment as well. The biggest black eye to the modern day gundog is the introduction of gundog brace (GDB). The GDB trials are a complete repeat of what happened to traditional brace and it seems to be spilling over into some of the SPO trials.
I can't comment on the SPO nationals since I have never attended, but there are some good dogs that I personally have seen run that have done well there that I feel are still gundogs.
I can't comment on the SPO nationals since I have never attended, but there are some good dogs that I personally have seen run that have done well there that I feel are still gundogs.
Great post! It is interesting to get other's point of view on this subject. It is fascinating to me to not only see the differences in running styles, but to see the difference in conformations. Nine times out of ten I can tell you a show,brace, UGBF, or Mid-West/Large pack dog by seeing a picture. As a licensed AKC judge I have read the rules that AKC has put in place, and the standard for a beagle, and it seems to me that brace hounds are exactly that...."brace hounds", a totally different breed. The fine gentlemen who brought good hunting dogs to our country and tried to improve the beagle as a hunting dog, since that is what is supposed to be, are turning over in their graves! Those crooked legged, half bassit looking hounds should not be registered in AKC as beagles. I blame AKC for not policing this more thouroughly, and further more I blame the breeders who's goal was to create such a worthless creature. When people take the test to become judges they aren't given a choice of hound style, only format style.
A beagle is supposed to track with the intent to overtake. What part of that is unclear? Bring the rabbit around as quickly and efficiently as possible so I can put some shot in it's butt! A beagle that does anything less is not what it is supposed to be. Thanks, I feel much better now. Sorry if I offended anyone, but sometimes the truth is difficult to accept.
A beagle is supposed to track with the intent to overtake. What part of that is unclear? Bring the rabbit around as quickly and efficiently as possible so I can put some shot in it's butt! A beagle that does anything less is not what it is supposed to be. Thanks, I feel much better now. Sorry if I offended anyone, but sometimes the truth is difficult to accept.