Grade vs. AKC hounds

bradadkins · Post by **bradadkins** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:38 am

lol just wanna open the discussion. There are people breeding hounds and there are some people breeding pedigrees. I try to breed good hounds to good hounds and they seem to produce a really good percentage of nice hounds. Now I have seen some very nice "grade" dogs also. Would you rather have a nice bred hound or a nice grade hound that would smoke a rabbit? The grade hound will out hunt..jump and run the other but it is AKC and bred to some nice hounds. Also..if you would rather have the really nice grade hound..why is grade hounds sold for cheaper??

my opinion....I would rather have the grade hound. If I have a beagle..it needs to run a rabbit and do it with a strong desire in every breath. Papers don't run rabbits.

Now your opinion.........

otisdog · Post by **otisdog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:17 pm

I agree with you on grade dogs. Thats all i have or will have. Just like you said, papers don`t run rabbits. You can buy a good rabbit dog with papers for 5-7 hundred or a rabbit dog with no papers for 1 hunderd. I have bought and sold a lot of dogs with no papers. papers i don`t sell. Just good dogs. otisdog

Catfish · Post by **Catfish** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:55 pm

Amen to that.

Catfish:

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:58 pm

You can't build a reliable and consistant breeding program with out knowing the pedigree. Can dispute it but... it's the fact.

Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:13 pm

If you know what you are looking for then you can get everything you want in a dog, along with AKC papers. If you get a complete dog with AKC papers and a pedigree it will be worth more in the long run. There are plenty of good grade dogs out there, but for every good grade dog there is a match with papers. If you plan on breeding or selling then it is a much smarter investment to get a solid dog with a good pedigree and the proper papers to increase its value.

Big Dog

bradadkins · Post by **bradadkins** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:53 pm

you guys aren't answering the question. which one would you rather have...hehe gotta stir a little.

Also here is the thing. Just because a female or male is out of good stock. If he or she doesn't preform up to standards he should be culled and not bred.Right?? If that is the case why do we have thse brood bitches that is "bred good" but can't run a rabbit?

If I bred a female she has to be a solid hound. Her faults will only pass on to her offspring.
We should bred for a better beagle and not a better pedigree. If you hev a grade dog that is good. and you bred it to a female. You know the offspring. How do you really.REALLY know that the sire and dam on your papers is the parents of your pup?

BigDog..you are right they are worth more in the long run and a better investment. But the fact remains that a excellent grade hound still won't outsell those papers on a average hound or even one that isn't worth feeding in my book.
This is good discussion...
Brad

EARLYBIRD · Post by **EARLYBIRD** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:11 pm

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HISTORY BEFORE YOU CAN HAVE A FUTURE. A PEN OF I KNOW OR A PEN OF MAYBE'S. I LIKE PAPERED DOGS. YA'LL BE RIGHT ABOUT PAPERS NOT RUNNIN A RABBIT BUT BY OWNING OR KNOWING THE LAST 3 OR 5 GENERATIONS CUTS OUT THE GUESS WORK. YA'LL KEEP EM RUNNIN

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:23 pm

Brad let me see if I can answer this right. Anyone can bred a good dog to a good dog .Probaly get pretty decent results . Here is the catch ,once you get 4 or 5 generations deep and your numbers decrease with success
maybe thats when grade dogs dont look the greatest. I have had good grade dogs but could never come back with any likeness, so my dog was not a good reproducer but outstanding rabbit hound .So yea papers dont run rabbits but if you are gonna stick with it papered dogs are almost like a gps for me . I can actually track my crosses there crosses your crosses .
Lots of knowledgable houndman got us here . If you cant cull , then maybe you should question that . Bettering the breed is why i am here not$$$$. I have always questioned anyone that breds quanity over quality.
Brood Bitches this is a sore thumb for most . I have had 2 strong bred brood bitches over time and ran both, most dont why?

dunno.
So basically i will continue my little beaten path bred a little and hope for the best . I have noticed one thing seems as though akc dogs live a few years later also . This is my opinion and only mine as i can talk much better than type .Run whatever you got as much as you can .

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:27 pm

If I bred a female she has to be a solid hound. Her faults will only pass on to her offspring.
We should bred for a better beagle and not a better pedigree. If you hev a grade dog that is good. and you bred it to a female. You know the offspring.

Sorry, but traits good and bad go back futher then the sire and dam. Without knowing the faults of dogs in her pedigree you are not breeding a better beagle. You are simply breeding and hoping for a good turnout.

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:57 pm

Good points everyone!

I think something that needs to be considered is hands on experience with a line. For example--- Sure I can look at the papers on a dog and see it's sire goes back to heavy Branko lines for the last 5 generations and the dam has 5-6 generations of Northway. So now what do I really know...... nothing, absolutley nothing unless I've spent a good amount of time in the woods with dogs of this pedigree. Now, either I've spent enough time with these lines of dogs to know what the name means, or I'm going on hear-say....

If I really am going to know what the name stands for.... I've got to put time in the woods with as many dogs as far back as possible to make good decisions.

That said, the name and papers become relatively meaningless as most good breeders that breed grade dogs can also put you in the woods with their dogs from a generation or two back.

To me the bottom line isn't papers or grade dogs, but the question is have I got in the woods and done my homework.

dk

otisdog · Post by **otisdog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:10 pm

Just because it is akc doesn`t mean squat. I can still buy akc papers without the dog. How many out there are still doing that. I have several generations out of my grade dogs. Have watched the background on mine for several years and like what i see. If your in it for the money then maybe you just have a puppy mill. I`ll run my dog against any akc.
NO FEAR JUST KNOW WHAT I GOT

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:37 pm

Brad, I would take the good grade dog every time. Here is the way I see it:
I would bet that every dog in that grade dog's pedigree (if it had one) was a good rabbit dog or it wouldn't have been bred. Chances are all the pups were given away or sold cheap. The breeder was after rabbit dogs, not money, trophys, ribbons or a set of papers with lots of FC's on it.

Now that AKC dog with all the FC's in it's pedigree most likely came from dogs that I would not have kept. I hunt, I don't field trial. It has been my experience that a high percentage of pups from AKC field champions do not suit me for rabbit hunting. I'm not going to say that they are not any good, it's just that field trialers breed for different traits than rabbit hunters that don't field trial. A dog with a pedigree full of FC's isn't worth anything to me if it can't keep a rabbit going in January when I am out trying to hunt it.

I also strongly agree with Houndsound, a pedigree means almost nothing if you never actualy hunted with any of the dogs in it. For example, I have hunted with a bunch of Branko bred dogs. Some were very slow and some were very fast, some were rougher than a cob and some had good line control. Some were ugly as sin and some were built like a show dog. Some sounded like a cheewawa and some sounded like a coonhound. What does the name Branko on a pedigree tell me?

Cottontail Chaser · Post by **Cottontail Chaser** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:31 pm

Papers sell dogs PERIOD!!!!! PAPERS = MONEY !!!! To this day the best dogs I have seen or hunted over were grade dogs. If you trial you need some sort of papers depending on the federation but if you rabbit hunt exclusively day in day out year after year you don't need papers you need good dogs and from what I have seen "Good dogs are where you find them". Not saying that I have not seen some top dogs that had some famous pedigree's.. The old timers around here who got me into rabbit hunting told me to breed the best to the best,raise them all and keep the best of the litter and cull the rest and to only breed when you need something you will get what you want its when you start breeding paper to paper that gets you in trouble.. Give me that Grade dog you mentioned above over that "Paper Dog" and we will enjoy a Hot Meal at the end of the day..

rally · Post by **rally** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:44 pm

brad sent e mail didnot rec. 12;46 my computer mess up rain stroms thank you

Kazoo · Post by **Kazoo** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:28 pm

I do have to agree that papers don't run rabbits. I keep only AKC beagles and have some darn good huntin dogs. The problem with a lot of AKC registered dogs is the breeders. Keep breeding to pedigrees and not rabbit dog to rabbit dog and you'll keep ending up with mediocre hounds, papers or no papers. I have seen to many breed to an ad in a magazine without knowing the dog or his ancestors just the fact that he has FC in front of his name. At least with papered dogs you have a half a chance of either seeing some of the ancestors run or find an old timer who has seen them run. As for not knowing who the parents really are that is why AKC has started DNA testing.

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