Still trouble.

MSU Dawg · Post by **MSU Dawg** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:18 am

Hi guys. I'm back. Just a few question to pose to y'all if you don't mind.

As some of you may know I have an aggressive beagle named Trouble. Last I time wrote about him, I was having problems w/ Trouble constantly barking at the yard dog & fighting w/ his male kennel mate Rogan. A bark collar was suggested & it worked ... at first anyway. He has stopped barking at the yard dog, but he still has awful fights/ w Rogan.

After breaking up another fight this morning I decided to put Trouble in another kennel. I have put this off as if you separate Trouble from another dog & then try to re-introduce him to another male (for running for example) the first thing he will want to do is fight. At least if he is kenneled w/ Rogan he is acclimated to his presence so when the tailgate drops Trouble is more inclined to look for rabbits instead of looking for a fight. And luckily for me his fights w/ Rogan look terrible but haven't ever inflicted much more damage than a nicked ear.

Well, I put Trouble in the kennel. I later then changed my mind & wanted to put him in different kennel. So when I went to get him he ran into the corner of the kennel. When I reached down to get his collar he snapped at me several times. I corrected him strongly for this as I want him to know biting is NOT tolorated.

He tried biting me once before - in this case he had a sock & I tried taking it away from him & he snapped at me. I corrected him for that too & he has not tried biting again until recently. After fight w/ Rogan about 2 weeks previously I tried to examine him to see if he was OK & he snapped at me. I let that go as I figured he was in pain.

Anyway ... I foolishly has left the door to the kennel open & he ran & hid under the house. Any time I tried to catch him he tried to bite. Finally I lured him out from under the house to a spot where he could not run away. I got him in the kennel by carefully looping a leash over his head. I could not even try to touch him or he'd snap at me.

Once I had the leash on him I held the leash so he couldn't turn & bite me & I made him let me pet him. Any time he tried snapping at he I corrected him. Finally he tolorated me petting him but I could tell from his look I was on a razor's edge. After a few minutes of petting I walked toward the kennel. He walked fine on the leash - no pulling or tugging.

Once I got him in the kennel he was a little shy, but he let me pet him w/out me having to have the leash held so he couldn't bite. Once I got the leash off of him he was all smiles. He let me pet him & pick him up. He even jumped up for me to pet him.

He seems to have dominance issues as well as being a fear biter. Are dominance & fear issues common among beagles? Should I cull this dog or try to work through this? In my prevous breed a dog like this would have been planted the first time it snapped at a human. But these are my first beagles & I do not want to act in haste.

As a side note, I brought him up the same as my other 2 beagles & they are solid as rocks. No problems.

Any insight from experinced beagle owners, breeders or handlers could give would be great.

Now I must go wash the mud off of me (from being under the house) & get ready for work. I look forward to reading your replies (if any) once I get home tonight.

Thanks!

bunnie harvester · Post by **bunnie harvester** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:40 am

MSU,, I personally DON`T put up with aggression, no dog of any breed should BITE the hand that feeds it..........
I have had beagles since 1962,only seen 4 dogs that were aggressive,2 the man liked his dogs that way so they couldn`t be
handled by anyone but him. the other 2 are in a hole ..........
Sorry to say but this one dog is not safe around your family or anyone else, visitors would scare me to death

.............

CULL this dog..........JMO

Gbeagle · Post by **Gbeagle** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:49 am

I have to go with Bunnie here unpredictable aggression is an ingredient for trouble . Fear biting is the worst because it is so unpredictable , and you don't want to take the chance of him biting someone else . JMHO

yellowdog · Post by **yellowdog** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:01 am

i got to agree..that hound is gonna hurt you or someone else sooner or later...i would definetly cull him now...it might not be what you want to hear but it is the truth

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:08 am

Over 60 years with beagles and I say you will never get this dog to be what you want. Get peace of mind.

He's crazy, that goes with being shy, and in the right situation will bite for whatever reason, doesn't matter.

You already lnow all this and need to face up to it.

If your dog bit and even worse, scarred my grandchildren for life, and I knew you were aware of this problem, I would be after you, and the dog!!!

Bury the dog quick!!!

MSU Dawg · Post by **MSU Dawg** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:16 am

Whew. I feel better. It's a wonder what a little soap & water can do!

Thanks for the input guys. I was thinking the same thing myself. After his 5th ot 6th time of snapping at me today he came perilously close to getting a bullet. But again, I didn't want to act in haste.

Luckily, we have no children & our families live out of state so we get no visitors. Even if we do get the rare friend who swings by Trouble is kenneled outside, so they have no access to him anyway.

I will say this however - he will try to run before he bites. He will not run after you & attack or anything like that. He only bites once he feels cornered. Upon thinking about it I had to corner him to get the sock & he was restrained by a leash when I was examining him after the fight. So he is not really an unpredictable biter - for example, I know now if I corner him or scare him he will bite - but the fact remains he will bite or at least try to bite.

Please keep the input coming. If this dog were to be worked with could his problems be resolved? I know "problem" dogs can be rehabilitated. But If they were resolved would he always have the underlying propensity to snap? Since my other 2 hounds were brought up the same as he was but are OK would you say his temp problems genetic in nature? Or is he just mental? Is this something he could pass on?

Thanks!

gus · Post by **gus** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:32 am

The problem is not the dog the problem is you. You know what needs to be done. Are you going to wait until this dog injures someone and have the athorities do it for you and then face a lawsuit? The choice is yours.

Big Mike · Post by **Big Mike** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:43 am

Don't drop the hammer on him just yet. Depending on how you like the dog inspite of this fault, and you like his hunting abilities, and much you are willing to invest in him. You might want to have him neutered, that takes the aggression out of most aggressive males, but not all. That's a lot of "AND's" but may be worth a try if you like him otherwise.

MSU Dawg · Post by **MSU Dawg** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:44 am

That's what I'm worried about Gus. Is the problem me? Did I do anything to make the dog this way? Would I be doing wrong if I culled him w/out first trying to help him overcome his problems?

I'm not worried about a lawsuit as we have no children, get no visitors & if he were to get loose he'd run away from a stranger before he'd bite.

But he'll snap at anyone - including me - if he gets cornered or scared.

Beagled1 · Post by **Beagled1** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:01 am

MSU Dawg wrote: Please keep the input coming. If this dog were to be worked with could his problems be resolved? I know "problem" dogs can be rehabilitated. But If they were resolved would he always have the underlying propensity to snap? Since my other 2 hounds were brought up the same as he was but are OK would you say his temp problems genetic in nature? Or is he just mental? Is this something he could pass on?

Thanks!

Problem dogs can't always be rehabilitated. If the cause is environmental or due to lack of socialization, theres always hope, and personally I prefer to give a dog as much of a chance as possible. If the cause of the shyness and aggression is genetic, you are wasting your time and making a mean dog live a miserable life. When they're temperament is that poor, they can't possibly have a normal, happy life.

I've worked with rescues in teh past and most of my experience is with fear aggressive or dominance aggressive Rotties, GSDs, and even a few toy poodles. If the fear aggression is mild, it can be controlled with training. ***YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO EVER TRAIN THIS DOG YOURSELF!!!*** The only way to deal with a dog this severely aggressive is to hire a $$$ professional trainer. Personally, if a dog needs a trainer to whip him into shape, I don't waste my time or resources on that dog. For every neurotic mess that would take hundreds of dollars to cover up a behavior problem, there are hundreds of good tempered dogs! I would never touch the dog you're describing with a 10 foot pole. God forbid you're huntign him and he breaks away and bites a child!

Biting a human hand is not acceptable. The best thing you can do for yourself, and for this dog, is to have it put down.

MSU Dawg · Post by **MSU Dawg** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:14 am

Thanks beagled1. I have worked w/ rescues too & have seen awful dogs turn out to be real sweethearts once they've been worked with. I guess that's why I'm rather hesitant right now - although I will admit Trouble was very close to being culled this morning.

I am worring if it was environmental as he is not really a mean dog, he is shy & spooky. But my other 2 hounds were raised exactly as he has been (in fact they were all raised together) & they are perfectly fine.

OK now I REALLY have to go to work now or I'm gonna be late!!! Please keep the opinions coming.

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:25 pm

mrwvsportsman · Post by **mrwvsportsman** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:25 pm

It sounds like this dog isnt a rescued dog. It sounds to me like you have raised him with your other dogs and he is just a shy unpredictable dog. No dog that bites is worth having. So why keep him around. It sounds like you know what the right thing to do is, but you dont want to do it. Beagles are escape artists. I wouln't want the possibility of him getting loose and hurting a child that tried to pet him. You never know what will happen with a dog like that. If he were in my kennel he wouldn't have been given the second or third chance to snap at me.

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:04 pm

MSU,
The answer to this dogs problems are evident in his history:

As some of you may know I have an aggressive beagle named Trouble. Last I time wrote about him, I was having problems w/ Trouble constantly barking at the yard dog & fighting w/ his male kennel mate Rogan. A bark collar was suggested & it worked ... at first anyway. He has stopped barking at the yard dog, but he still has awful fights/ w Rogan.

This dog gets this behavior genetically, he cannot be rehabiltated. End him.

Beagled1 · Post by **Beagled1** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:15 pm

MSU Dawg wrote: I am worring if it was evnvorionmental as he is not really a mean dog, he is shy & spooky. But my other 2 hounds were raised exactly as he has been (in fact they were all raised together) & they are perfectly fine.

Even if it IS environmental, some dogs can be mentally damaged beyond the point of no return.
I've seen just this with a toy poodle. It started out with a friendly temperament but after years of being owned/neglected by an elderly woman who had neurosis of her own to deal with, the dog came to me a train wreck.
She had dominance aggression issues such as she jumped up & bit my face because I would not feed her table scraps. No amount of obedience training in the world could completely undo the bad habits that were allowed to fester out of control. Yes, she got better, but better isn't good enough. A dog must, at the very least, be reliable around its own people. This dog also had teriffic fear issues when it came to other people/new situations that she simply could not overcome. She had a good temperament to begin with, but some dogs just don't recover. You can't put off culling this dog in the hope it may change. I can tell you from what you wrote that no progress is being made despite your efforts - at least not enough progress is being made - to justify letting this dog live.
Its not just for the sake of others a mean or fear aggressive dog should be put down. The dog itself is miserable being in a constant state of fear and nervousness.