Just when I was gonna leave well enough alone I get dragged back in.
When I said I would like once a year heat cycle who wouldn't how many times does your good female come in during hunting and you can't hunt her cause she's in heat or for the trial guys that can't trial cause thety come in heat twice a year I myself would like once better but hey your must be smarter then me. And for having smaller litters that would work to anyones advantage but being of scientific mind you knew that right or have you not heard of the punitive square I think that's what I was told it is if anyone knows what I'm talking about they could explain it better anyhow with only 3-4 pups per litter your advantages would in crease as to how to pick the pups that say could be the total package so to speak be like what Patch said and he said it well with your knowledge you should not be breeding dogs.
And if everyone was a quiter or admitted defeat such as you then I guess nobody would be a breeder I for one am not a quiter. Steve
inbreeding ???
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Steve, I said to mybeagles, ""I RESPECT YOUR OPINION and your correct, with your degree of knowledge, you shouldn't line/inbreed... ",
I didn't say he shouldn't breed beagles!
If one doesn't understand or trust something, they should stay away from it, for what can be gained, if you don't know the reason for what your doing or trust that it is correct.
Many people don't believe in close breeding, they blame the Walkie-talkie's on close breeding. But, close breeding was only the tool they used to get where they wanted. Walkie-talkie's were the result of the "standard and selection" the breeder's set, to get their type of hound. They are a great case study of the power of "standard & selection" put into practice w/ the tool of close breeding to set those traits for your ideal hound. When you think, the hounds in their pedigree at one time actually wanted to catch a rabbit, an then today, the decendants from those same hounds could care less if they ever caught a glimpse of a rabbit, but solely focuses on track-to-track walking, it was amazing to me when I first saw it...
I think walkie-talkie's are great! They are a visual to us, of the importance of standard & selection, they show the powers of heredity and how close breeding can set those traites to be produced in the massees. They are the warning sign of what can happen when focus on "style" overshadows "accomplishment"...
God bless those little hobby hounds
...Patch
I didn't say he shouldn't breed beagles!
If one doesn't understand or trust something, they should stay away from it, for what can be gained, if you don't know the reason for what your doing or trust that it is correct.
Many people don't believe in close breeding, they blame the Walkie-talkie's on close breeding. But, close breeding was only the tool they used to get where they wanted. Walkie-talkie's were the result of the "standard and selection" the breeder's set, to get their type of hound. They are a great case study of the power of "standard & selection" put into practice w/ the tool of close breeding to set those traits for your ideal hound. When you think, the hounds in their pedigree at one time actually wanted to catch a rabbit, an then today, the decendants from those same hounds could care less if they ever caught a glimpse of a rabbit, but solely focuses on track-to-track walking, it was amazing to me when I first saw it...
I think walkie-talkie's are great! They are a visual to us, of the importance of standard & selection, they show the powers of heredity and how close breeding can set those traites to be produced in the massees. They are the warning sign of what can happen when focus on "style" overshadows "accomplishment"...
God bless those little hobby hounds
...PatchMybeagles wrote, "I will stand behind the vast scientific world that opposes inbreeding and let you break the ice into the wonders that inbreeding has for us!" .....................................................................................................................What scientific world would that be 
????? Inbreeding, linebreeding, out crossing etc, are THE scientific proven methods in breeding pretty well anything, not just beagles. Horse racing owes its greatest champs to sound breeding methods such as inbreeding and linebreeding. Same with greyhounds, cattle, you name it. Again, what science are you referring to?
????? Inbreeding, linebreeding, out crossing etc, are THE scientific proven methods in breeding pretty well anything, not just beagles. Horse racing owes its greatest champs to sound breeding methods such as inbreeding and linebreeding. Same with greyhounds, cattle, you name it. Again, what science are you referring to?It's not that life is short......it's just that we're dead for such a long, long time...
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smithbros.1
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:45 pm
Breed them how you like them, You pay the feed bill.S.R Patch hope you didn't take my post the wrong way as I know I had a long day.I started a new thread about the reading material and I can say that even back in 1954 guys where inbreeding dogs as was written in the HOUNDS and HUNTING mags I have and even back then they where having trouble with how things where done be it field trials or breeding the proofs in the writings I have.And as I stated before I may have sounded as that inbreeding is the only way to go but I was wrong, what I simply meant is that inbreeding doesn't create all the 1 eyed crazy monsters it's just another tool to better your dogs if used correctly.Now I'm going back to my own little world and let the scientises work out this thread. 
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Steve
I have stayed out of this debate too.
As an old timer, who as a teenager with a kennel of beagles in the early 50's waiting by the mail box for those copies of Hounds and Hunting every month and devouring all that was in them I can say I have seen many folks inbreed and followed the trend some myself back then.
We and many others kept two sets of beagles. Those we hunted (bred Best to best) and those we inbred to trial. The movement among all trialers (there was only one recognized trial and that was AKC Brace). There were unofficial trials held, but they were actually gundog beagle matches for speed and drive and were for money wagering.
The goal we all had was to breed for ever more slower, right on the track brace beagles with each litter to be able to WIN.
Over many years, the goal has been met as their beagles do exactly as was wanted. But, in obtaining their goals, bad traits came with it that has to be lived with. Many physical and mental defects, breeding and whelping problems. Just ask one to see. Go look at their dogs. Go to a trial.
These folks were smart and understood inbreeding and did the proper things like cull hard, etc.
My point is simply this. It was easier to inbreed successfully in the 50's since the goal was to go backward (Digress the breed). When those 50's breeders write and talk about improving the breed or breeding a better trial beagle that could win, their meaning was not as it is today. In other words, to breed to go slower, to have crooked stunted legs that move a dog slower, heavy bodies, etc was much easier than inbreeding to get faster, straighter, and what is now called improving.
Try what you want, they are your dogs. Running them is not all the enjoyment.
It would be interesting to talk to you about your breeding program in about 20 years and get your opinion then.
I have stayed out of this debate too.
As an old timer, who as a teenager with a kennel of beagles in the early 50's waiting by the mail box for those copies of Hounds and Hunting every month and devouring all that was in them I can say I have seen many folks inbreed and followed the trend some myself back then.
We and many others kept two sets of beagles. Those we hunted (bred Best to best) and those we inbred to trial. The movement among all trialers (there was only one recognized trial and that was AKC Brace). There were unofficial trials held, but they were actually gundog beagle matches for speed and drive and were for money wagering.
The goal we all had was to breed for ever more slower, right on the track brace beagles with each litter to be able to WIN.
Over many years, the goal has been met as their beagles do exactly as was wanted. But, in obtaining their goals, bad traits came with it that has to be lived with. Many physical and mental defects, breeding and whelping problems. Just ask one to see. Go look at their dogs. Go to a trial.
These folks were smart and understood inbreeding and did the proper things like cull hard, etc.
My point is simply this. It was easier to inbreed successfully in the 50's since the goal was to go backward (Digress the breed). When those 50's breeders write and talk about improving the breed or breeding a better trial beagle that could win, their meaning was not as it is today. In other words, to breed to go slower, to have crooked stunted legs that move a dog slower, heavy bodies, etc was much easier than inbreeding to get faster, straighter, and what is now called improving.
Try what you want, they are your dogs. Running them is not all the enjoyment.
It would be interesting to talk to you about your breeding program in about 20 years and get your opinion then.
Interesting post John however I think it will add to the confusion more than anything. The bottom line with any breeding, be it out crossing, line breeding, inbreeding or whatever is this.......you can only get out what is already in there. Mybeagles does have some valid points to consider in his posts, however like your post implies he is confusing cause and effect here. If one was to say that most inbreedings done were bad......I almost have to agree but here's the catch, most ALL (outcrossing or otherwise) breedings done are more than likely "bad" and do little to improve the hunting beagle. In the examples you used the culprit is not inbreeding.......the culprit is breeders who were not selective enough, or selected for the wrong qualities. Its really that simple. They were after a couple of specific traits and ignored whatever else came thru in order to perpetuate those traits and characteristics. They took short cuts and when you take short cuts you will have to pay the piper eventually. Some of the short cuts they took may have been unavoidable on their parts........but that doesnt excuse them. The most notable of these would most likely be not having a large enough gene pool to select from.......the downfall and biggest mistake of almost ANYONE undertaking a breeding program.
It's not that life is short......it's just that we're dead for such a long, long time...
NorWester, Ill agree with you on that post.....many of the breedings today should never happen but obviously we cant do anything to change that....IMO, the big advances in breeding are close with all the new research in genes, DNA, and pairing them with traits......
One thing I enjoy about these boards is the passion we all have towards beagles.....We have all come to our own understanding of what a beagle should be and how to get there......Although we all feel strongly about our methods, none of them are fool proof as Ive yet to see anyone dominate the field....Everyone keep on trying and see who's cream rises to the top!
One thing I enjoy about these boards is the passion we all have towards beagles.....We have all come to our own understanding of what a beagle should be and how to get there......Although we all feel strongly about our methods, none of them are fool proof as Ive yet to see anyone dominate the field....Everyone keep on trying and see who's cream rises to the top!
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
The part of breeding that has amused me for 60 years is the self imposed stature of the breeders who inbreed and I am including those in the 40's and 50's as well as those today. They all said and say the same thing about those in the past and themselves.
It seems those that do inbreed are always smarter, more knowledgeable, and more ruthless in culling in their breeding than those of us common folks who make up the vast majority that do not inbreed beagles.
They perport to know some big breeding secret that the rest of us do not know or understand.
I saw it then and read it now. When the subject came up, the inbreeders would roll their eyes, look at you sideways and declare that YOU "really have to know what you are doing and cull hard". Of course that meant them and that they knew.
I have never known the big inbreeding secret, asked many for it and never known anyone else that knew it. It's amusing and a joke!
If they did know something special they must not have practiced it as their dogs sure didn't show the superiority from inbreeding. I have run with those dogs off and on for over 60 years that were products of so called superior inbreeding and the most respected knowledgable hard cullers and wondered why if they believe in culling so, why they didn't cull the ones I saw.
Believe me, if their dogs showed the stuff I wanted more than any others, I would be a converted believer and have their inbred dogs in my pen.
Challenge:
Take the top 50 dogs in any trial format except brace, identify the Inbred and the Outcross-Best to Best dogs and see who is superior and what breeding is beating who.
It seems those that do inbreed are always smarter, more knowledgeable, and more ruthless in culling in their breeding than those of us common folks who make up the vast majority that do not inbreed beagles.
They perport to know some big breeding secret that the rest of us do not know or understand.
I saw it then and read it now. When the subject came up, the inbreeders would roll their eyes, look at you sideways and declare that YOU "really have to know what you are doing and cull hard". Of course that meant them and that they knew.
I have never known the big inbreeding secret, asked many for it and never known anyone else that knew it. It's amusing and a joke!
If they did know something special they must not have practiced it as their dogs sure didn't show the superiority from inbreeding. I have run with those dogs off and on for over 60 years that were products of so called superior inbreeding and the most respected knowledgable hard cullers and wondered why if they believe in culling so, why they didn't cull the ones I saw.
Believe me, if their dogs showed the stuff I wanted more than any others, I would be a converted believer and have their inbred dogs in my pen.
Challenge:
Take the top 50 dogs in any trial format except brace, identify the Inbred and the Outcross-Best to Best dogs and see who is superior and what breeding is beating who.
From Noah to Abraham, these men met God's standard and their seed was spread wide...Alabama John wrote:It seems those that do inbreed are always smarter, more knowledgeable, and more ruthless in culling in their breeding than those of us common folks who make up the vast majority that do not inbreed beagles.
They perport to know some big breeding secret that the rest of us do not know or understand.
I saw it then and read it now. When the subject came up, the inbreeders would roll their eyes, look at you sideways and declare that YOU "really have to know what you are doing and cull hard". Of course that meant them and that they knew.
I have never known the big inbreeding secret, asked many for it and never known anyone else that knew it. It's amusing and a joke!
If they did know something special they must not have practiced it as their dogs sure didn't show the superiority from inbreeding. I have run with those dogs off and on for over 60 years that were products of so called superior inbreeding and the most respected knowledgable hard cullers and wondered why if they believe in culling so, why they didn't cull the ones I saw.
Believe me, if their dogs showed the stuff I wanted more than any others, I would be a converted believer and have their inbred dogs in my pen.
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cabin fever
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Blanchester, Oh
mybeagles wrote "I believe ALL inbreeding is bad, and should never be done.....Linebreeding is questionable at best and in more instances than not, BAD." Out of respect for his and others opinion on the subject I will refrain from saying anything negative here, I think everyone should kennel, feed, and breed what they want it really has no effect on me personally but I sure would like to have a kennel full of dogs that were the results of Bad inbreeding and linebreeding.
Int. Fc Branko's Ali Baba
Fc Maravic's Blue Jean
Fc. Maravic's Blue Barry
World champion Talk About Blue Jasper
Fc.Branko's Rabble Rauser
Fc.Bingo's Mr Postman
Fc. Branko's Hard Rock
LPRCH Talkabout Code Blue
Int Fc Branko's Dirty Pond Laika
Fc.Branko's Boonecreek Trimmer
Fc.Branko's Boot Scoot'n Boogie
TK's Rockhill Rambler
Just a few, anyone care to add to the list? mybeagles if you consider these dogs bad then you must be breeding some really high powered beagles, let me know when you have your next litter I would be willing to pay a couple thousand dollars for one of those pups.
Dave
Int. Fc Branko's Ali Baba
Fc Maravic's Blue Jean
Fc. Maravic's Blue Barry
World champion Talk About Blue Jasper
Fc.Branko's Rabble Rauser
Fc.Bingo's Mr Postman
Fc. Branko's Hard Rock
LPRCH Talkabout Code Blue
Int Fc Branko's Dirty Pond Laika
Fc.Branko's Boonecreek Trimmer
Fc.Branko's Boot Scoot'n Boogie
TK's Rockhill Rambler
Just a few, anyone care to add to the list? mybeagles if you consider these dogs bad then you must be breeding some really high powered beagles, let me know when you have your next litter I would be willing to pay a couple thousand dollars for one of those pups.
Dave
I did say a few have been successful, and you certainly listed some that I was thinking of, but the list of outcross champions would obviously far surpass any list you could come up with.
I have not seen many of the dogs you list run, but will say two that you have listed are not brag dogs in my book......
I have not seen many of the dogs you list run, but will say two that you have listed are not brag dogs in my book......
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Branko's Ali Baba???
His sire, Copperboy, is from an outcrossed stud bred to a lightly linebreed bitch.
His dam, Double Ann, is inbreed. Father/Daughter cross.
Copperboy to Double Ann can barely be called linebreeding as Ann's Ann shows up 5 times in 5 generations but 3 of these appearance are in the inbreeding of Double Ann. This means that in 5 generations (62 dogs) Ann's Ann and her heritage only contributed 21 times to Ali Babas Gene pool. Thats 41 indian's in the wood pile. Looks like an outcross off of inbreeding to me. Now here is where it gets interesting. We don't read or hear about (inbreed) Int. FC Branko's Double Ann. Mostly because she did not earn that title. But we do hear an awful lot about her son that did.
His sire, Copperboy, is from an outcrossed stud bred to a lightly linebreed bitch.
His dam, Double Ann, is inbreed. Father/Daughter cross.
Copperboy to Double Ann can barely be called linebreeding as Ann's Ann shows up 5 times in 5 generations but 3 of these appearance are in the inbreeding of Double Ann. This means that in 5 generations (62 dogs) Ann's Ann and her heritage only contributed 21 times to Ali Babas Gene pool. Thats 41 indian's in the wood pile. Looks like an outcross off of inbreeding to me. Now here is where it gets interesting. We don't read or hear about (inbreed) Int. FC Branko's Double Ann. Mostly because she did not earn that title. But we do hear an awful lot about her son that did.