inbreeding ???

[smithbros.1]

Steve, Keep us posted on your results & Good luck hunting.
Take Care J

[ricky murphy]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I have been told that inbred pups are more likely to have health problems. I have had good luck line breeding pretty close, but have always been afraid to inbreed. Just something to think about.

i had heard there could be problems my my main consern is i dont want to lose my 2 bitches at welping i with the help of a friend have put a lot of time an effort into those 2 bitches

[S.R.Patch]

I don't understand the added threat to your bitches health, by breeding her back to her sire, unless, he's 1/2 coonhound or has a disease he may spread...
Any whelping has it worries, but none extra brought on by the relationship two hounds may bare towards one another when bred, as to the health of the bitch in accomplishing whelping.
You'd do more harm laying the bitch up and overfeeding her...

[Plowboy]

JAW says : Take a look at the rabbits we run their inbreed and inbreed some more and it takes nothing away from their ability to loose my hounds or yours,in fact they keep getting better and their not outcrossed.


This statement says it all, only the smart cunning rabbits live to reproduce because mother nature culls the weak & dumb. That is the key as a lot of people are not willing to cull, so the weak & dumb are allowed to reproduce.
Glad I am not a rabbit as I would have been culled a long time ago. lol
Plowboy

[Bev]

Here are some interesting facts. In the wolf pack, only the Alpha female comes into heat, and only the Alpha female gets bred. Females lower into the hierarchy don't. The offspring of this breeding will eventually outlive one of its parents. Guess who gets to breed? As long as Alpha Dad is alive he will breed his daughter if he chooses. As long as Alpha Mom is still alive, she will be bred by her Alpha son. A comment was made about "messing with Mother Nature". Well, this is Mother Nature. Animals in the wild inbreed. They have no pedigrees on each other, they have no morality issues to deal with, and the strong survive.

Inbreeding has a solid purpose, but should be done by those who have good tutilage and are willing to cull as hard as Mother Nature does. When you have 2 outcrossed dogs - dogs with 32 different sets of genes in a short pedigree, how can you possibly get any consistency in the offspring? There are just too many variables to count on reliability - for whatever traits you're looking to reproduce. If you ever expect to sway the odds in your favor, you will either linebreed or inbreed. It's daring, and it's a risk, but nothing extraordinary comes easily, or without risk. If you inbreed 2 direct family members, you have immediately cut your chance for inconsistency in half (be it good traits or bad, so keep that in mind). If your dogs are already linebred, half-sib breedings will do about the same thing.

The only true 100% inbreeding (in my book) is a full sib breeding. In an outcrossed situation, a mother's son is only half her genes, a father's daughter is only half of his. Even in a full sib breeding, if their parents were outcrossed and shared no or few relatives you may have cut the variable genes from 32 to 16. 16 different sets of genes is still a lot of variables. My math may not be exact, but you get my idea.

I think most people have a hard time separating human morality from animal husbandry, and they can come up with a squillion horror stories to support their fears. Inbreeding is bad when you start with junk because you just intensify the junk. When you mix gold and gold, you won't end up with tin. The one trend I've noticed from observing hounds of constant inbreeding - even starting with good stuff, is you tend to lose size and sometimes foot. mybeagles bore that theory out when he/she spoke of the hounds only being 11" tall. I see it happen with the female pups of inbreeding more often than the males. Why, I don't know. Every WELL-MANAGED inbreeding program will eventually need an outcross for hybrid vigor, and to put some size back into the hounds.

Inbreeding is definitely not for the unschooled or feint of heart, but not for the reasons most think. One has to be impartial enough to know when it didn't work, and strong enough to do what needs to be done when it doesn't.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Well said Bev!

excellent.

Lone Pine Beagles

[ricky murphy]

I don't understand the added threat to your bitches health, by breeding her back to her sire, unless, he's 1/2 coonhound or has a disease he may spread...
Any whelping has it worries, but none extra brought on by the relationship two hounds may bare towards one another when bred, as to the health of the bitch in accomplishing whelping.
You'd do more harm laying the bitch up and overfeeding her...

IVE HAD THE MOST TROUBLES IN WELPING FIRST TIME MOTHERS THEY HAVE COST ME IN C SECTIONS AT THE VET I HAVE BRED BEAGLES CLOSE BEFORE TWO SISTERS COST ME 2 C SECTIONS ALSO THE LESS CLOSE I HAVE BRED THE LESS LESS TROUBLE IVE HAD WITH WELPING

[steve]

very well said Bev.
Now a question for you and I'm not trying to be a smart a--.If I breed my inbred female back to her father again that makes her double inbred,so then as the male is an outcross dog what are the numbers I'm working with would it be 16 or 8.Thanks Steve

[coyote hunter]

Hey all great post but I do have to comment on the wolf pack.How can we compare them to our beagles being inbreed??They are still wild and our hounds are not we as people were so called apes at one time, are we the same totally now???.It was said the male will breed his offspring IF HE WANTS,that means in their wild life they know what is best for their breed.Our hounds are not wild.What happens when a breeding is made and it goes to S--t,who fixes it as us the breeder and what if we don't?Inbreeding is a very hands on hands off topic for a beagler.Who has been the biggest inbreeder of hare hounds in Canada?And where does the greatest #of hounds in the states come from?(ped. )Take care.

[S.R.Patch]

S.R.Patch wrote:
I don't understand the added threat to your bitches health, by breeding her back to her sire, unless, he's 1/2 coonhound or has a disease he may spread...
Any whelping has it worries, but none extra brought on by the relationship two hounds may bare towards one another when bred, as to the health of the bitch in accomplishing whelping.
You'd do more harm laying the bitch up and overfeeding her...

ricky murphy wrote:
IVE HAD THE MOST TROUBLES IN WELPING FIRST TIME MOTHERS THEY HAVE COST ME IN C SECTIONS AT THE VET I HAVE BRED BEAGLES CLOSE BEFORE TWO SISTERS COST ME 2 C SECTIONS ALSO THE LESS CLOSE I HAVE BRED THE LESS LESS TROUBLE IVE HAD WITH WELPING ;end quote
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Randall said, "the more we take on to do for our hounds, the more we take on a job never finished." What he meant was, coddling the unfit and substandard only breeds on their problem, trouble or weakness in the future generations.
I know of no whelping problem line/inbreeding brings on. The process of trouble free whelping is, selection of the most fit to carry on with, and the elimination of those troublesome, from the breeding stock.
Narrow rears (pelvis) and large show head types are the most common problems with whelping. Once in a while, one born breech or out of the sack will hold up the works and makes assistance necessary.
Other than being an excellent rabbitdawg, a good bitch must also of necessity meet the requirements of, being a easy whelper, good mother, good milker and the producer of large healthy litters, not asking much, is it? But this is as much an important part of the total rabbitdawg, if our goal is improvement, else we're going backwards.
It's hard not to breed a good bitch, but if she's proven to be a poor whelper or lacks the milk or motherly instincts to raise good pups, it's your pig if your ignore the obvious and every litter has to go into the "intensive care" unit.
Enjoy her for her contribution to the pack, but never breed from her, else your sins be multiplied...

[Bev]

steve, give me time to soak in ur question. It's late and i can't focus on too much, lol. I will try to answer as best as I can with my limited knowledge.

Hey all great post but I do have to comment on the wolf pack.How can we compare them to our beagles being inbreed??

Because they are breeding at will. Most WILL breed their daughters - especially if those daughters exhibit Alpha Female tendencies. Alpha Male - Alpha Female. Those are the two who by and large replenish the pack. WE, onthe other hand, don't allow our dogs to inbreed at will. We think about traits, conformation, talent, etc., and we make an educated decision. If Mother Nature can sort out the fittest from a "breeding at will" program, certainly we can be at an advantage making studied and unbiased decisions.

...they are still wild and our hounds are not...

Wild meaning feral, or wild being unmanaged by humans? The wolf-pack in many respects is the most correct form of social order on earth.

...we as people were so called apes at one time, are we the same totally now???.

A few come to mind...

It was said the male will breed his offspring IF HE WANTS,that means in their wild life they know what is best for their breed.

And THAT is why they often breed their daughters and sons. They are Alpha's - they didn't get there by being weak, and they passed those same traits to their offspring.

Our hounds are not wild.

Don't be so sure. All dogs descended from wolves. They still carry many of the behaviors of wolves. Just because you've taught them to come, to down, to wait their turn to eat, doesn't make them tame necessarily. It simply means that you've managed to adapt to the lifestyle of the wolf yourself and behave accordingly - where you are the Alpha Supreme and you're speaking their language - not them speaking yours. Since all dogs descended from wolves and the DNA of the poodle, beagle, and rottie is IDENTICAL to the wolf's, then that explains why the wolf was inherently willing to work as a hunting partner with man, It's been a survival symbiosis of sorts from the beginning. Exploiting that (in a way), we elected to use selective breeding; we molded the wolf into the 400+ recognized different breeds of today - to perform whatever function we require of them, or grow their hair a certain length. We created the different breeds over decades and centuries, but always remember this - if all our canine pets were released to the wild, to interbreed at will, those individual traits we bred and culled for so strenuously over decades and even centuries would vanish in short order. They would revert to a shepherd-looking, yellow-coated and quite feral animal. In a few short generations, the dog would become the dingo. Don't discount the 'wild" that is just below the surface of dogs.

What happens when a breeding is made and it goes to S--t,who fixes it as us the breeder and what if we don't?

I will repeat the last sentence of my prior post since it basically answers this question.

Inbreeding is definitely not for the unschooled or feint of heart, but not for the reasons most think. One has to be impartial enough to know when it didn't work, and strong enough to do what needs to be done when it doesn't.

If you have to ask that question, then don't do it.

[blackdirt beagles]

Hey all great post but I do have to comment on the wolf pack.How can we compare them to our beagles being inbreed??

werent you the one who compared inbreeding beagles to humans????


basically if you dont have the knowledge or the commitment to your dogs, then dont do it but dont look down upon those who do.

[blackdirt beagles]

I think a person should ask themselves what the # of good compared to bad people have got from inbreeding????more crap than good for sure.What about you do get a good one and than linebreeds it and that is just enough of a gene pool to make it go sour???and you have to cull it all or do ya and maybe you give it to a kid as a pet no big deal but it ends up breed and the putps are sold ???and on goes the cycle of junk.Why would one even think that way with all the great studs out their?How much since would it make to have a child with your own mother????I think it is alot of stress on her female having a liter knowing that you may have to cull them all.Don't personally make since to me .Dan

i high-lighted your comparison there. seems to me like your talking in circles???? on page 1 you compare dogs to humans but on this last page you ask how we can comapre dogs to wolves... lol.

[mybeagles]

Im not sure some of you are read up on the wolf pack! By the time the males would have reached Alpha male status, most, if not all of them would have been run off from the pack and created their own pack....many of the females are attracted to bordering pack males.....many die off for various reasons.....Sure some of the breedings are close, but of those crosses we dont always know what the outcomes are.....But I guess the main point is, the offspring do not ALL stay in the pack for life.....according to Darwin, continued inbreeding will lead to exstinction.....this has been proven with different species.

Patch, inbreeding CAN lead to difficulties with the bitch.....If a genetic disposition for breeding difficulties exists, it would be exacerbated with double that genetic trait.....the female may have also inherited physical problems if she is a result of inbreeding....this would not be the norm, but certainly a possibility.....Just because physical abnormality isnt outwardly noticed doesnt mean it doesnt exist!

[NorWester]

You guys need to remember that selection is the key to ANY breeding program. Various styles of breeding are merely tools to aid in that selection process. To state that inbreeding is good or bad is like stating hammers are good or bad.........if you're using it to saw a log, its bad. To pound nails with however, its good. It all depends on how ya use'em.