IMHO, the breeding results from Emmy Lou do little to recommend her as a reproducer but do show the reproducing power of the Hammer IV blood, as we know, a reproducer has the ability to stamp upon a large majority of their offspring the good qualities, regardless of the hound bred to.
I wouldn't mind having Emmy Lou in the pedigree as long as she had been bred to the Hammer IV blood...Patch
Emmy Lou Patch
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Plow
I will take her in mine, I don't care if it was a cross with a housecat, she was a helluva rabbit dog & I want the best hounds in the mix. There aren't 5 great reproducers in most lines anyway so might as well raise the odds of your offspring by filling the background with awesome rabbit dogs.
Pennyroyal Patch casey was bred to death & produced very little except when crossed on Tusseys White Lady, again another Hammer IV lineage product. The Hammer IV blood would be the most desired of any but is far removed from original & today is hard to find. So IMHO stack the deck in your favor by filling the background with the best performers & the producers will emerge from the foundation.
Pennyroyal Patch casey was bred to death & produced very little except when crossed on Tusseys White Lady, again another Hammer IV lineage product. The Hammer IV blood would be the most desired of any but is far removed from original & today is hard to find. So IMHO stack the deck in your favor by filling the background with the best performers & the producers will emerge from the foundation.
Do you really think you could get a housecat to perform this feat?...lol
What great feats of rabbit running did you see this hound perform. I never got to see her run but would enjoy hearing your personal experience with the hound and the years and hours you followed her. I've talked with those who ran with her and they said she was a nice little hound.
Again, you & I both know you haven't seen enough Casey offspring to make such a statement. But we can talk about Casey running deer and his out at the elbow fault if you like. But if you talk to any knowledgeable patch breeder, he will tell you, to get the hound that will run itself to death, with an unquenchable desire to hunt, you better have Stupe in the pedigree, that I've seen.
Mr. Capozzi got upset some years ago when they were doing a big promotion on Stupe and told me, he had traced Stupe in a direct line back to the Patch Kennels and he felt shorted that they didn't mention that in the add and give the kennel any credit.
I don't know what your up to, first it was save the Yates breeding and the deer proof hound. Now it's Emmy lou, and a few deer runs ain't bad. This is all very interesting... Have you found an old Emmy Lou hound your going to start breeding?
...Patch
What great feats of rabbit running did you see this hound perform. I never got to see her run but would enjoy hearing your personal experience with the hound and the years and hours you followed her. I've talked with those who ran with her and they said she was a nice little hound.
Again, you & I both know you haven't seen enough Casey offspring to make such a statement. But we can talk about Casey running deer and his out at the elbow fault if you like. But if you talk to any knowledgeable patch breeder, he will tell you, to get the hound that will run itself to death, with an unquenchable desire to hunt, you better have Stupe in the pedigree, that I've seen.
Mr. Capozzi got upset some years ago when they were doing a big promotion on Stupe and told me, he had traced Stupe in a direct line back to the Patch Kennels and he felt shorted that they didn't mention that in the add and give the kennel any credit.
I don't know what your up to, first it was save the Yates breeding and the deer proof hound. Now it's Emmy lou, and a few deer runs ain't bad. This is all very interesting... Have you found an old Emmy Lou hound your going to start breeding?
...Patch-
Plow
First, I have never stated a goal to produce deer proof hounds, that you have confused with Steve Smith. My advice to him was that there is no line to produce such a result, thats my opinion on that subject.
Second I never saw Emmy run in person just spent hours visiting with Clyde. Got first hand accounts from Mike Yates who saw her run on the island & Dave Clucky who saw her run in Michigan, GW Wright who owned & hunted 8 off spring of hers & the only direct offspring of hers I saw run was a male from Stupe x Emmy that Jack Steward owned in Benton Tn back some years named Rusty.
I have tried to keep the Yates hounds going because they were getting scarce but also because the first Patch hounds I had in the 80's mostly Stupe x White Lady breeding or some variation of that were not getting better ( I felt) by increasing the Stupe side so went to the White Lady side & that took me back to Yates.
Now that being said I am tired of everything I say about anyting Patch being challenged by your personal attacks, I am in no competition with you to sell pups nor claim I know it all, but I do know a little so respect my opinions & I will respect yours. I am sure the people of this board are sick of seeing us debate on every Patch thread that appears.
have a good one.
Second I never saw Emmy run in person just spent hours visiting with Clyde. Got first hand accounts from Mike Yates who saw her run on the island & Dave Clucky who saw her run in Michigan, GW Wright who owned & hunted 8 off spring of hers & the only direct offspring of hers I saw run was a male from Stupe x Emmy that Jack Steward owned in Benton Tn back some years named Rusty.
I have tried to keep the Yates hounds going because they were getting scarce but also because the first Patch hounds I had in the 80's mostly Stupe x White Lady breeding or some variation of that were not getting better ( I felt) by increasing the Stupe side so went to the White Lady side & that took me back to Yates.
Now that being said I am tired of everything I say about anyting Patch being challenged by your personal attacks, I am in no competition with you to sell pups nor claim I know it all, but I do know a little so respect my opinions & I will respect yours. I am sure the people of this board are sick of seeing us debate on every Patch thread that appears.
have a good one.
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HighRoller
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:04 am
- Location: S.C. GameCocks
Hey Plow,
I'm just trying to learn, why shoot, if we didn't bicker about these hound, folk would think we didn't care...lol
Now I in no way attacked you or Emmy, I think I said she was a nice hound a couple of times. I just didn't see her producing power, what were the pups Mr. Wright had from her/ how did they do?
I have a different opinion of the Stupe blood than you, but you said you needed hound to hunt close and not get out because you were hunting small farms. On the coal mine ground they can have free range to hunt & then when they have hunted it out, we move on. I like a little Yates, it helps tighten them up but I always want them going.
You used to like to talk to me(I thought) when you were getting pups but now it seem since the old Patch men gave you the pictures and pedigrees, you take everything I say as a attack, when really it's just a differance of opinion and maybe something I say to you or you say to me will make us think and not close our minds, and if taken in the right light, we might learn something from each others experience.
You know, I remember Randall saying one time, when the boys come together, they usually only tell half the story and this is where the harm is done. I think it's good for us to be critical of our hounds, it makes us not favor them as we do our kids.
I'm sorry you take me in the wrong way, so I'll leave you alone...
Have a good one also...Patch
I'm just trying to learn, why shoot, if we didn't bicker about these hound, folk would think we didn't care...lol
Now I in no way attacked you or Emmy, I think I said she was a nice hound a couple of times. I just didn't see her producing power, what were the pups Mr. Wright had from her/ how did they do?
I have a different opinion of the Stupe blood than you, but you said you needed hound to hunt close and not get out because you were hunting small farms. On the coal mine ground they can have free range to hunt & then when they have hunted it out, we move on. I like a little Yates, it helps tighten them up but I always want them going.
You used to like to talk to me(I thought) when you were getting pups but now it seem since the old Patch men gave you the pictures and pedigrees, you take everything I say as a attack, when really it's just a differance of opinion and maybe something I say to you or you say to me will make us think and not close our minds, and if taken in the right light, we might learn something from each others experience.
You know, I remember Randall saying one time, when the boys come together, they usually only tell half the story and this is where the harm is done. I think it's good for us to be critical of our hounds, it makes us not favor them as we do our kids.
I'm sorry you take me in the wrong way, so I'll leave you alone...
Have a good one also...Patch
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Plow
SR don't ever leave me alone,
I don't want to become blind either,
A little Stupe ain't never gonna hurt any hound, I just don't like as heavy an influx of it as you.
Guess I get carried away sometimes about these old pot lickers but I know they mean a lot to both of us or we wouldn't feel as strongly as we do.
The main theme I want the young man to get from this thread is that the female he has is not directly out of Emmy, he e-mailed me the sire was a hound named Buddy & such a hound has never been bred to Emmy.
This is the worst thing I see that happens from an open registry, bad info given on papers.
Keep them in the brush,
Plowboy
I don't want to become blind either,
A little Stupe ain't never gonna hurt any hound, I just don't like as heavy an influx of it as you.
Guess I get carried away sometimes about these old pot lickers but I know they mean a lot to both of us or we wouldn't feel as strongly as we do.
The main theme I want the young man to get from this thread is that the female he has is not directly out of Emmy, he e-mailed me the sire was a hound named Buddy & such a hound has never been bred to Emmy.
This is the worst thing I see that happens from an open registry, bad info given on papers.
Keep them in the brush,
Plowboy
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Plow
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VABEAGLER
I try to stay out of some of these things but this time i have to speak out. Being a patch man for many years i have to say there is a great division between the patch breeders and the over all balance of the patch line is dying. Finding patches that look run and act like they were bred for their origional purpose is tough.
I think the biggest problem with patches is the guys breeding them. The pedigrees say patch but the vision of the dog is gone. The patch family was not only a line or family of line bred dogs. The patches were a different type hound with their own style of running. They were big fast aggressive hard hitting hounds that could run for days to catch the hare. This dogs were laid back easy handling teddy bears when not at work.
If you can't see the vision of patch you will never breed it.
My old hounds came from a gentleman that bought straight from Willet. He told me that for years the only hounds Willet would send south were the ones to small to suit for the north. It now shows in the line beacuse there are more and more of the short big boned heavy bodied patches out there than you would bealieve. This suited most of the guys for chasing cottontail and they continued to breed the dogs.
The patch hounds are not just a line they are a type of beagle. If you can not see that or understand what i am saying you definately should not be breeding patches.
This may step on a few toes but so be it. At one time you could see a hound and guess it was a patch before you ever new anything about it just by it's look and demeanor and running style.
Today if you guessed it could be anything as there is no defining line between the patch as a line and many of the others out there.
I think the biggest problem with patches is the guys breeding them. The pedigrees say patch but the vision of the dog is gone. The patch family was not only a line or family of line bred dogs. The patches were a different type hound with their own style of running. They were big fast aggressive hard hitting hounds that could run for days to catch the hare. This dogs were laid back easy handling teddy bears when not at work.
If you can't see the vision of patch you will never breed it.
My old hounds came from a gentleman that bought straight from Willet. He told me that for years the only hounds Willet would send south were the ones to small to suit for the north. It now shows in the line beacuse there are more and more of the short big boned heavy bodied patches out there than you would bealieve. This suited most of the guys for chasing cottontail and they continued to breed the dogs.
The patch hounds are not just a line they are a type of beagle. If you can not see that or understand what i am saying you definately should not be breeding patches.
This may step on a few toes but so be it. At one time you could see a hound and guess it was a patch before you ever new anything about it just by it's look and demeanor and running style.
Today if you guessed it could be anything as there is no defining line between the patch as a line and many of the others out there.
Very well said VA.
As each man breeding the hounds standard and requirements change, so do the hounds.
If the hounds are not tested for the qualities Randall bred for in his hounds, it is lost.
No one could breed or test the metal, as Randall did. We would have to retire and move to the Adirondaks to do that, for he had the time and all the wilderness around him for a testing grounds.
I like your analogy of having the "vision of the hound in mind, to be able to breed the hound". That's what Randall said, " We must first get the "ideal" in mind and set the standard to a minimum of what is acceptable and cull the rest.
I think Randall knew the hounds sent South would not remain as they were at their birth place. The folks in the South were hungry for something that could go all day and would reproduce that type.
Mike Yates told me, that through the trials and what was tested for and required, their hounds had evolved into 2-3 hour rabbit hounds, that's all they were good for and then they were following at your heels the rest of the day. He sent to Randall for hounds that had the grit & ability to hunt all day and come back the next for more. He got grown hounds, not pups, so when he turned them loose, he said they were wilder than peckerwoods and were off to hunt the swamps just like they did when they were home. He said he like to have never caught them back up to put in the kennel...lol... He bred from these and selected the pups that showed closest to the type he liked and then inturn, bred back from these(easier to pull, than push a rope). The hounds evolved into his type hound for the suited game and so the new mold was created.
We've found a cross of the two makes a well rounded hound that has the desire to go and the patients to work when necessary, it's kind of a balancing act between the two. Now I'm not speeking in general, the hounds used from each must be good ones and have most, if not all the qualities needed, breeding the extreems together won't get you there. But it's like breeding the strengths of one group into the shortcoming of the other, while staying within the family. The key is to look at the whole overall hound and stay away from the extreem of either...Patch
As each man breeding the hounds standard and requirements change, so do the hounds.
If the hounds are not tested for the qualities Randall bred for in his hounds, it is lost.
No one could breed or test the metal, as Randall did. We would have to retire and move to the Adirondaks to do that, for he had the time and all the wilderness around him for a testing grounds.
I like your analogy of having the "vision of the hound in mind, to be able to breed the hound". That's what Randall said, " We must first get the "ideal" in mind and set the standard to a minimum of what is acceptable and cull the rest.
I think Randall knew the hounds sent South would not remain as they were at their birth place. The folks in the South were hungry for something that could go all day and would reproduce that type.
Mike Yates told me, that through the trials and what was tested for and required, their hounds had evolved into 2-3 hour rabbit hounds, that's all they were good for and then they were following at your heels the rest of the day. He sent to Randall for hounds that had the grit & ability to hunt all day and come back the next for more. He got grown hounds, not pups, so when he turned them loose, he said they were wilder than peckerwoods and were off to hunt the swamps just like they did when they were home. He said he like to have never caught them back up to put in the kennel...lol... He bred from these and selected the pups that showed closest to the type he liked and then inturn, bred back from these(easier to pull, than push a rope). The hounds evolved into his type hound for the suited game and so the new mold was created.
We've found a cross of the two makes a well rounded hound that has the desire to go and the patients to work when necessary, it's kind of a balancing act between the two. Now I'm not speeking in general, the hounds used from each must be good ones and have most, if not all the qualities needed, breeding the extreems together won't get you there. But it's like breeding the strengths of one group into the shortcoming of the other, while staying within the family. The key is to look at the whole overall hound and stay away from the extreem of either...Patch
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VABEAGLER
Patch,
You saw some of the old hounds and from the way you speak you carry the vision. I never kept alot of patches as i was no breader. Fact is I only raised 3 litters of Patches in 12 years. All the pups are at homes with gunners and to my knowledge except for one with the same person that bought them as pups. I will never fullfill my vision as i will never keep the amount of dogs required to acheive the goals i seek. This is the reason i left the patches. I never kept enough to breed my own and i grew tired of buying and weeding through all the counterfeits that had a patch pedigree to get what i wanted.
Keep breeding the patch as a whole and you will be rewarded. I hope to some day be able to watch a strange pack of beagles run and be able to pick out the patch hounds without even knowing they are so just like when i started this game as a kid.
'
Brian
You saw some of the old hounds and from the way you speak you carry the vision. I never kept alot of patches as i was no breader. Fact is I only raised 3 litters of Patches in 12 years. All the pups are at homes with gunners and to my knowledge except for one with the same person that bought them as pups. I will never fullfill my vision as i will never keep the amount of dogs required to acheive the goals i seek. This is the reason i left the patches. I never kept enough to breed my own and i grew tired of buying and weeding through all the counterfeits that had a patch pedigree to get what i wanted.
Keep breeding the patch as a whole and you will be rewarded. I hope to some day be able to watch a strange pack of beagles run and be able to pick out the patch hounds without even knowing they are so just like when i started this game as a kid.
'
Brian
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Plow
Who among us can turn 25 to 30 hounds loose for a weeklong excursion? The times have changed and so have the desires of the breeders. Mike Yates had a difficult time getting Randall to send any hounds to the South. Stories from men who had been in the military, of miserable heat and humidity coupled with enormous numbers of mosquitoes had Randall leery of sending his hounds into such a region of the country. It took three years of correspondence to finally persuade Randall to send the hounds to Mississippi. Yates told me the deciding factor was when he told Randall “If the darn things don’t pan out, I will knock them in the head” Randall then followed “You would kill a hound that performed below standard?” Yates followed with “darn right!” The rest is history as they say. Yates always preferred the big strapping 15” hound with darker lemon to red markings. He tried to breed some control of the line plus some (hunt with me) attitude, within the stock he acquired. His goal was to do this without loosing the fire for the all day hunt. I too have seen the big body with the short leg and also the greyhound build with lean body and long leg as well as one hundred variations in between. I must disagree, with the analogy of the southern hound being portrayed as the example of the bad proportioned hound. I always hear questions concerning the unreliable uniformity of a litter. If the strain is so tightly woven, why will you get hounds ranging from 13” to 16” from the same litter? Why are the hounds in the catalogues of the 60’s and 70’s colored with black saddle backs and broken dark patterns when the majority around today are mostly white with fawn or lemon spots?
The adjustments men make along the way directly reflect each breeder’s desire for the trait of his or her liking. As long as there are dogs there will be differences in opinion about which direction to head them in.
It reminds me of Pizza, there are a bunch of different outfits making pizza these days. All use the same basic ingredients but add a unique recipe to identify the finished product as their own. Consumer demand will dictate what gets carried forward; the most popular thrive the rest go out of business.
I agree the “Vision” should always be the pulse you check, to assure your product, is alive and well.
None of us can be a Randall or a Yates but we must do our part to assure their contributions were not in vain, by carrying on a quality product that is easy to recognize in the pack.
Plowboy
The adjustments men make along the way directly reflect each breeder’s desire for the trait of his or her liking. As long as there are dogs there will be differences in opinion about which direction to head them in.
It reminds me of Pizza, there are a bunch of different outfits making pizza these days. All use the same basic ingredients but add a unique recipe to identify the finished product as their own. Consumer demand will dictate what gets carried forward; the most popular thrive the rest go out of business.
I agree the “Vision” should always be the pulse you check, to assure your product, is alive and well.
None of us can be a Randall or a Yates but we must do our part to assure their contributions were not in vain, by carrying on a quality product that is easy to recognize in the pack.
Plowboy
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VABEAGLER
Plow,
The color thing has always bothered me. My guess is it just became a fad and the lemons were soon to become the choice.. To this day many who have lemon beagles will be asked by others if they are patch.
I never liked the yellow eyes and the reddish noses that became prevelant. I noticed long ago the hard running was even harder on them with the pink pads and reddish noses. Even around the eyes seemed to take a beating. There was and still is the lemon that have black eyes and dark noses which always seemed to be my favorite.
When i mentioned the south i meant the area as a whole. It would stand to reason that the dogs would be bred differently with the southern terrain and the same dog in the north with the big legs would have no apparent use in smaller brushier aqreas.
There is a difference i have bought patches from the south. Never kept one and there was some decent dogs there but never what i was looking for as it seemed you always had to go north to still find a patch that was close to what we consider the norm.
Plow not saying you don't breed good dogs as i know you have many that would disagree.
What i am saying is the patches were bred for hare and acquired a style to do so. How can they retain that style if they have been bred for 20 years in a area that has no hare or the big woods to roam in. The qualities that made the patch successful cannot be bred in full honesty in and area where those qualities cannot be tested.
When you live in areas where there is small lots of woods large briar thickets, Fence rows. etc.... You breed dogs to best suit those areas.
When you live in an area where the woods is large and vast, Game scare and swamps big enough to loose a person and never be found you breed for a dog to best suit that area.
Again not to cause problems but i can assure you we are talking about two different (Patch Hounds).
The color thing has always bothered me. My guess is it just became a fad and the lemons were soon to become the choice.. To this day many who have lemon beagles will be asked by others if they are patch.
I never liked the yellow eyes and the reddish noses that became prevelant. I noticed long ago the hard running was even harder on them with the pink pads and reddish noses. Even around the eyes seemed to take a beating. There was and still is the lemon that have black eyes and dark noses which always seemed to be my favorite.
When i mentioned the south i meant the area as a whole. It would stand to reason that the dogs would be bred differently with the southern terrain and the same dog in the north with the big legs would have no apparent use in smaller brushier aqreas.
There is a difference i have bought patches from the south. Never kept one and there was some decent dogs there but never what i was looking for as it seemed you always had to go north to still find a patch that was close to what we consider the norm.
Plow not saying you don't breed good dogs as i know you have many that would disagree.
What i am saying is the patches were bred for hare and acquired a style to do so. How can they retain that style if they have been bred for 20 years in a area that has no hare or the big woods to roam in. The qualities that made the patch successful cannot be bred in full honesty in and area where those qualities cannot be tested.
When you live in areas where there is small lots of woods large briar thickets, Fence rows. etc.... You breed dogs to best suit those areas.
When you live in an area where the woods is large and vast, Game scare and swamps big enough to loose a person and never be found you breed for a dog to best suit that area.
Again not to cause problems but i can assure you we are talking about two different (Patch Hounds).
I agree, we get alot of size variance in whole litters, big males/small females. SR Patch Beanie was one that gave me good level size litters, Aunt Sib & Nell Patch could throw good size. Keeping good size bitch pups from good size bitchs has become a part of the standard to try to level things out. A few years ago everyone was looking for a small Patch male to breed to, was like trying to find chicken teeth.
Brian, I agree with you. Unill you've gone North to run the Hare, you don't know what you've got. We had hounds drop out, we had hounds passing blood, we had hounds go lame. Those that stayed till the end proved their supeior ability and only through seeing was I able to judge what it took to hold up and be a hare hound. Until you ask a hound to dig deep and show you what he's got, your going down a blind path. If you've got a hound that can do a good job running a cottontail and can then take him and run a hare all day, every day for a week, you've really got something you should be proud of...Patch
Brian, I agree with you. Unill you've gone North to run the Hare, you don't know what you've got. We had hounds drop out, we had hounds passing blood, we had hounds go lame. Those that stayed till the end proved their supeior ability and only through seeing was I able to judge what it took to hold up and be a hare hound. Until you ask a hound to dig deep and show you what he's got, your going down a blind path. If you've got a hound that can do a good job running a cottontail and can then take him and run a hare all day, every day for a week, you've really got something you should be proud of...Patch