Red Cell and Equimax

[joe kaschak]

I know that a number of houndsmen use red cell and equimax. The reason I am posting is that I have a dog that had a very low blood count (16.3 with normal supposed to be between 37 and 55 according to vet) So far almost 2 weeks on prednisone, sulcrafate and antirobe. Thursday added a vitamin and mineral substitute with copper and iron along with b6 and b12. and some other trace minerals. Vet also said I SHOULD NOT give him the red cell or equimax. I had not given on a regular basis, only some red cell if he bled real bad (he has a pretty beat up tail). I have only used the equimax once as a vet tech suspected whip worm (bad looking stool at a trial, I asked her opinion--she also said I shouldn't use equimax, but should get Drontal?? from the vet). I would like the opinion (especially from a vet who is also a beagler) on whether or not these items should be used on beagles (I would not use them until after dog is healthy and reason for low red blood count is known). After a week and a half his count is up to a little over 24. He is done trialing for the year, I just hope I will be able to hunt over him this year. I do keep all my beagles on Interceptor heartworm tabs and this is also supposed to take care of whips and roundworms, so none of these (red cell or equimax are used regulary.

[jeffro]

What was the reason the Vet gave to not use Red Cell? It is just Vitamins. I have a female with low Blood count also, bobbed 2.5 inches off her Tail and put her on Red Cell last hunting season she had the Drive as good as any Dog . If not more! A diference of night and day. She also had 6 healthy pups this spring.

[Beagled1]

You can always give this dog a tablespoon of raw beef liver or just the raw blood if he doesn't care for the taste of the liver. This is probably the easiest and best cure for any type of anemia.

[joe kaschak]

Jeffro, the vet didn't give me a good reason, he called while I was still at work and talked to my daughter. Said something about it over stimulating the dog's system. Also said no calves liver or chicken liver (I always thought these were a good source of iron which should help the red blood count) and no beef. Chicken or lamb only (my wife has always cooked up livers, chicken, turkey, etc. to mix with the dog food. Never had a problem in 30+ years. Also, none of the other 3 are affected)

Beagled1, This dog would eat raw liver or the blood with no problem.. Have even fed him raw deer meat while butchering a deer. I'm kind of looking for opinions because I'm not sure what caused this in the first place. Seems to have come on him just like that, no rhyme or reason. And the vet is not sure why either or if he is, he ain't talking. Anymore ideas would sure be welcome.

[jeffro]

put a castration band on the tail to avoid loosing blood. take it off right below the scarring. my vet wanted 80.00 to do this castrating band are humane the tail goes numb fairly quick.

[Bunny Runner]

Joe,

Your vet really needs to give you a firm diagnosis, but in the meantime maybe I can interpret some of what he has told you.

Please understand I am NOT a veterinary professional, just a layperson that does ALOT of research and has some animal care education.

First of all, redcell and equimax are processed through the dogs liver and with ANY type of anemia, it just works the liver that much harder as red blood cells are produced there. SO, in essense, the liver is working overtime trying to make RBC and process these "toxins" we are putting in their bodies. Now, put on top of these things, all the drugs your dog is getting, plus his vitamins and minerals from his diet. The liver is "tired" so-to-speak. It's having a hard time keeping up with it all. As for the liver in the diet, it's full of Vitamin A, which is processed by the liver and in large quantities can cause toxicity. Compound this by giving normal quantities to a dog with immune system problems and it's just too much for THAT dog. There are two types of vitamins, water soluable and fat soluable. Water soluable vitamins are processed by the kidneys and they are C, and the B vitmins. They are easily accepted by the body and any unused quantities are simply excreted through the urine. Fat soluable vitamins are processed by the liver and build up in the tissues. They are A, D, E, K and can cause problems if to much is given. Daily vitamin and mineral supplements can cause problems if your dog is not deficent. Minerals are classified as Macromineral (meaning needed in greater quantities) and Microminerals (trace minerals needed in very small amounts). Iron is a micromineral. Here's some info on Vit/Mins http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... &word=iron
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... rals%2cdog



Now, let's try to figure out what your vet suspects. If I had to guess (and it's just that!) I'd say he's think Acute Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia or something similar. Here's a list for your review http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... c%2canemia
There are several forms of this type of disorder that are idiopathic (meaning they don't know why they get it) and some that are very specific, so since we don't know what is causing the problem to begin with, we narrow our search down to the ones that seem to have no real cause. Also, it came on him quickly, so the Acute part fits that bill as well. The meds you vet is giving are similar to what would be used with Acute AIHA.

I will also add that heartworm preventatives (including Ivermectin or those that contain it) can cause liver damage which can cause anemia. Vaccinations can cause immune system problems as well.

Check out this link (especially the toxic causes of anemia blue link on this page) http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... m&word=rbc

Ask your vet to do a Coombs test, it can rule out some stuff or diagnose the cause.

I hope some of this rambling helped. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Huntin54]

I will also add that heartworm preventatives (including Ivermectin or those that contain it) can cause liver damage which can cause anemia. Vaccinations can cause immune system problems as well.

What type of heartworm preventative would you suggest then????

[Bart Caudill]

I will also add that heartworm preventatives (including Ivermectin or those that contain it) can cause liver damage which can cause anemia. Vaccinations can cause immune system problems as well.

I asked my vet a few months ago if Ivermectin could cause liver damage when used on dogs. He started laughing and said that he hadn't ever heard that before. He also said that it would be hard to overdose a dog with Ivermectin, said you would just about have to be trying to overdose them on purpose. Where did you get your info Bunny? I'm not trying to contradict you, just wondering who is right.

Bart

[Bunny Runner]

The use of Ivermectin in most dogs is fine, but dogs with immune compromised systems, it can cause problems or exacerbate them. Please don't misunderstand me, as I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just pointing out, that, in some cases, it can cause problems.

I still believe it's the best preventative for heartworm for heathy dogs. I use it for my hounds, but Joe was asking about HIS dog that has some form of anemia and I would NOT suggest any product that contained ivermectin until the cause of the illness is diagnosed. I also have used it effectively to help people treat their dogs for mange and have used it personally for deer fawns that were suffing from some form of mite infestation, so I do believe that it's an effective "tool".

There have been dogs that have died from injections of the (now banned) Proheart 6 heartworm preventative. These dogs died from liver failure and AIHA (autoimmune hemolytic anemia) that was proven to be caused by the injection. SO, apparently, your vet didn't hear about these few dozen dogs.
http://concernedvet.netfirms.com/effects.html
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2 ... 01312.html

It is still and always will be best to consult your veterinarian for treatment options for any condition. If your vet can't provide you with an adequate diagnosis or you feel uncomfortable with what's provided, seek a second opinion.

I'll restate my qualifications for the record.
I am in college (mid-life career change) for Animal Care and Management Technologies and do alot of research on animal health and nutrition. My research is acquired from veterinary journals, scholarly articles, peer-reviewed science based studies, and other's personal experiences. I'm considered a lay-person and have no professional title. I do have considerable personal experience with many animal species including dogs, cats, wildlife (rabbits, deer, wolves, etc), exotics (tigers, lions, servals, etc.) and am active in wildlife rehabilitation and a member of my states wildlife rehab association.

[joe kaschak]

This is an update on my dog. I finally got a call from the vet today. Had a good 15-20min conversation with him. The dog is definitly improving(his red blood count is now a little over 33). When I took him in for a blood test this past wednesday, I asked if a Coombs test had been done(I don't know--I don't think so-- I'll ask the doctor were the answers I got). I was supposed to be called with the results of the rbc test. No call. I finally called on Friday, only to be informed that the vet had left for the day and wouldn't be back till Monday. I told the person on the desk that I wanted a call from the vet on Monday. Well he called. I was full of questions--the answers I got --I feel-- should be shared as they may help someone in future. A Coombs test was done--the results POSITIVE. This means that for some reason, the dog's immune system identified his natural red blood cells as foreign bodies and attacked and began to destroy the red blood cells. This is what caused the anemia. What caused the immune system to do this??? There is not now and probably won't be an answer. Any number of things can be the trigger. It is not an uncommon occurance in dogs(whatever the breed). ANY type of medication can trigger it, sometimes a drug that has been taken with no effects can suddenly trigger it. Dogs running in hot weather and all of a sudden run in colder weather can also be a trigger. It is not really hereditary and there is no problem or danger to a breeding program. In my case, I can only identify 2 things that had changed from normal routine-- The bordatella vaccine and the small amounts of red cell that I gave him because of the bleeding tail (I didn't ask specifically, but I suppose the blood loss from the tail and the rigors of training and trialing, contributed to it ). The good news is that, although I will have to keep a close watch on him, a relaspe is rare in dogs that have been treated by my vet. (he said he could only remember 2 times in 15 years that there was a relaspe). The bad part is that it is difficult to tell. Check the gums regulary to be sure they are pink and not white. You can also tell by looking at the whites of their eyes for the traces of red (veins??). Monitor the dog's activity and if it seems to be getting lazy or tired, it should probably go for a blood rbc test. While the standard norm for a dog is 37 to 55, it is possible that a dog's rbc is in the lower 30's. The only way to tell is for a rbc to be done when the dog is still healthy. (I am going to have a rbc test done on the son of this dog as it MAY help establish the count on the sick one, but is certinally not much more than a guess). It will give me a base line for the pup, just in case I have problems with him.

One more real important fact. Prednisone is used to treat this condition. There is another drug on the market that is almost guaranteed to bring the blood count up, however the immune system will in time recognize it as a foreign body and will attack causing everything to start all over. There is a draw back to long term use of prednisone: it can cause hip problems by damaging the cartiledge. I asked the vet about using cosequin ds(a glucosmine/condroitan tablet--diatary supplement)
and he said it would be anexcellant idea as it would not hurt anything and would definately help the cartiledge. I do give this to my 11 year old. I have ever since the operation to repair the cruciate ligament(acl) he tore a couple of years ago, and he acts like a new pup.

Bunnyrunner, I want to thank you for the info that you supplied, it was very helpful. I hope this longwinded post will help someone to better understand about this problem.

[Bunny Runner]

Joe,

I am so glad your dog is on the mend

It's always great to hear GOOD NEWS.


Renee'